A First Wort Hop Question..

[MattC]

Hi folks, I have a few questions regarding FWH. I havnt really been a FW hopper in the past and am going to give it a try and see what kind of a difference it makes. I have read up a bit on it and find that a general rule of thumb is that first wort hops are about equivalent in bitterness to a 20 min addition. The type of bitterness is more rounded and pleasant without any harshness you may find from a 60 min addition. Also the benefits it gives to flavour are apparently excellent. Many sites say to add your normal flavour additions as FWH.. have I got that much correct?

Where I get a little hazy and cant seem to find an answer is does first wort hopping totally replace the normal bittering addition or is it only meant for the flavour additions and is added along with your normal bittering hops? If it attributes the same as a 20 min addition, then I cant see how it would replace the bittering addition, however when I put the figures into Beersmith I get a higher overall IBU figure.

Example recipe for hop additions

Simcoe 12.2% AA @ 60 min = 31 IBU
Centennial 9.10% AA @ 15 min = 6 IBU
Amarillo 8.2% AA @ 0 min = 0 IBU
Total 36 IBU

If I then change my flavour addition of centennial to FWH I get approx. 56 IBU as the FWH gives 25 IBU.
From other's experiences, should I be reducing the simcoe bittering hops or upping the FWH and eliminating the simcoe? or what?

Cheers

 

[razz]

Hi Matt. As far as I can tell the comparison to a twenty minute addition is for flavour, not bitterness. In Beersmith the FWH addition is calculated as 90 minute if that's how long you boil for or sixty minutes if that's the total boil time. I FWH most of my beers and typically add hops at FWH, 20 minute and whirlpool addition.

 

[MattC]

Thanks Razz but Im sure ive read a few places that talk about bitterness being equivalent to a 20 min addition (in particular an article on APA by Gordan Strong in a past issue of BYO)

Also a bump to see other responses.

 

[Malted]

Thanks Razz but Im sure ive read a few places that talk about bitterness being equivalent to a 20 min addition (in particular an article on APA by Gordan Strong in a past issue of BYO)

Also a bump to see other responses.

How could something that is boiled for 60 minutes be as bitter as something boiled for 20mins? We are talking about isomerisation of the Alpha Acids into the solution; my understanding is that the aroma compounds etc that are driven off by boiling. You can see in the chart below that aroma and flavour are just about zero by 40 minutes.
(Link to original source)


FWH is attributed as contributing a smoother bitterness, or a lower PERCIEVED bitterness (perhaps as much percieved bitterness as a 20 min addition? Just guessing where such a statement could originate from) but actual IBU's ARE higher. Ahh bugger it, have a jolly good read through the next link.
Comprehensive discussion of this in a previous thread LINK

 

[sinkas]

I have never understood this, seems totally disparate with the resto of brewing science maybe a space-time continuum chagne occurs when you FWH

 

[beerdrinkingbob]

Thanks Razz but Im sure ive read a few places that talk about bitterness being equivalent to a 20 min addition (in particular an article on APA by Gordan Strong in a past issue of BYO)

Also a bump to see other responses.

I think you must be getting no chilling late hopping confused with first wort, plenty of articles on AHB stating that the flame out hops for NC are the like 20 minute additions!!

If the hops are added at start of the runnings, the bitterness starts to kick in at 75 to 80 degrees, so basically all the time over that is bittering time, so even longer than your boil!

Hope that helps.

BDB

 

[MattC]

I think you must be getting no chilling late hopping confused with first wort, plenty of articles on AHB stating that the flame out hops for NC are the like 20 minute additions!!

If the hops are added at start of the runnings, the bitterness starts to kick in at 75 to 80 degrees, so basically all the time over that is bittering time, so even longer than your boil!

Hope that helps.

BDB

Thanks for your response Bob and I understand how you could think I was possibly confusing the two, but it is most definately first wort hops im referring to. The article I was referring to earlier in the thread was from BYO mag Vol 15 No. 1 (2009) style profile - American Pale Ale. the Author was Gordan Strong. He quotes

"I really like to first wort hop my American pale ales. I add my flavour hop addition to the kettle and run my hot wort onto them. I calculate they give you the same amount of IBU's as a 20 min bittering hop addition".

I would like to think this guy knows what he is on about...Which is the reason for my query, the numbers in Beersmith seem to contradict this information and other info i have read.

Cheers

 

[stl]

Hi folks, I have a few questions regarding FWH. I havnt really been a FW hopper in the past and am going to give it a try and see what kind of a difference it makes. I have read up a bit on it and find that a general rule of thumb is that first wort hops are about equivalent in bitterness to a 20 min addition. The type of bitterness is more rounded and pleasant without any harshness you may find from a 60 min addition. Also the benefits it gives to flavour are apparently excellent. Many sites say to add your normal flavour additions as FWH.. have I got that much correct?

Sounds about right from both what I've read and the couple times I've tried it.

Where I get a little hazy and cant seem to find an answer is does first wort hopping totally replace the normal bittering addition or is it only meant for the flavour additions and is added along with your normal bittering hops? If it attributes the same as a 20 min addition, then I cant see how it would replace the bittering addition, however when I put the figures into Beersmith I get a higher overall IBU figure.

No, it doesn't replace your normal bittering hops. See this article about FWH which spells that out and has a couple of other tips.

 

[razz]

I guess everybody is entitled to change their mind when more information comes to hand. I'm talking about Gordon Strong, not myself. In Strong's latest book he talks about FWH on page 68.
To quote, "The interesting thing about FWHing is the perceived effects. While measured bitterness is tested at perhaps 10 percent greater than that obtained from a 60 minute boil, the actual perceived bitterness seems lower to me because it has a smooth character. Some sources have suggested that a FWH addition should be calculated as providing the IBU contribution of a 20 minute addition. Since the actual measured bitterness is higher, I'd be concerned that this approach would throw off the balance of the beer. Calculate the bitterness as a 60 minute boil, but understand that it might seem lower to some palates."

 

[MattC]

Thanks Razz, that info helps. Supports what Malted mentioned. Whats the book called?

Cheers

 

[razz]

Brewing Better Beer, released this year. There is one common message with Strong's opinion and the link from stl, the perceived bitterness is said to be the same as 20 minute addition, doesn't mean it's the same IBU. FWHing has a smoother bitterness blah blah blah, you get the message.

 

[beerdrinkingbob]

interesting statement, good to hear that it's not the actual ibu's but the perceived bitterness, otherwise the mind boggles on how that works...I guess I should leave it to the experts and get back to what I do best :chug:

 

[Fourstar]

FWHing has a smoother bitterness blah blah blah, you get the message.

As someone who exclusivly FWH as a part of my process instead of a 60 minute addition this could be somewhat true but highly debatable. Although i wouldnt say it has this effect with all varietals of hops. Floral/herbal seem to have the best results for the noted method. Especially noble varieties with single hop additions of a FWH, although this could just be the nature of the beast.

From what i have come to understand with FWH is the lower temperature + extended contact time before the boil the hop oils/resins/compounds breakdown differently to that of a typical 60 minute addition. IIRC you keep some hop aroma because of it, 'smoothness' and possibly a change in the residual hop flavour.

Do i know the difference between this and a 60 minute? I'd say no, but thats because i do nothing but FWH as my bittering addition and havent done anything other for the past 2 or so years. I also no-chill which could be another contributing factor (and also the reason why i had opted to FWH back in the day).

I see another brew off coming up for me soon. FWH vs no FWH.

 

[jimi]

As someone who exclusivly FWH as a part of my process instead of a 60 minute addition this could be somewhat true but highly debatable. Although i wouldnt say it has this effect with all varietals of hops. Floral/herbal seem to have the best results for the noted method. Especially noble varieties with single hop additions of a FWH, although this could just be the nature of the beast.

From what i have come to understand with FWH is the lower temperature + extended contact time before the boil the hop oils/resins/compounds breakdown differently to that of a typical 60 minute addition. IIRC you keep some hop aroma because of it, 'smoothness' and possibly a change in the residual hop flavour.

Do i know the difference between this and a 60 minute? I'd say no, but thats because i do nothing but FWH as my bittering addition and havent done anything other for the past 2 or so years. I also no-chill which could be another contributing factor (and also the reason why i had opted to FWH back in the day).

I see another brew off coming up for me soon. FWH vs no FWH.

Not meaning to labour the point fourstar but I'm assuming you calculate your FWH as a 60min addition (in a 60 min boil)? And slightly off topic what do you calculate your Cube hopping as?
I'm pretty sure Barry (the beer God) calculates FWH as a 20min add IIRC.
I actually stopped doing FWH when I moved to cubing out of the fear that the cubing would throw this early hopping out - not sure if I've got my bitterness calcs quite were I want them just yet and always interested in how other calc theres

 

[Fourstar]

Not meaning to labour the point fourstar but I'm assuming you calculate your FWH as a 60min addition (in a 60 min boil)? And slightly off topic what do you calculate your Cube hopping as?
I'm pretty sure Barry (the beer God) calculates FWH as a 20min add IIRC.
I actually stopped doing FWH when I moved to cubing out of the fear that the cubing would throw this early hopping out - not sure if I've got my bitterness calcs quite were I want them just yet and always interested in how other calc theres

No. I calc mine as a FWH addition (more like a 90 min addition) and all of my hopping if you observe any of my recipes is the actual timing minus 15 mins. e.g. if its a 15 min additon its flameout, if its flameout its whirlpool and whirlpool = hop tea/cube hop.

Your hop utilisation does not decrease, it increases with FWH. Its believed the perception of bitterness that changes but dont let this idea fool you into thinking you can adjust for the FWH IBU, you cant. If you do, you will end up with 75 IBU pilsners if you add a 60 min addition to a FWH.

 

[jimi]

No. I calc mine as a FWH addition (more like a 90 min addition) and all of my hopping if you observe any of my recipes is the actual timing minus 15 mins. e.g. if its a 15 min additon its flameout, if its flameout its whirlpool and whirlpool = hop tea/cube hop.

Your hop utilisation does not decrease, it increases with FWH. Its believed the perception of bitterness that changes but dont let this idea fool you into thinking you can adjust for the FWH IBU, you cant. If you do, you will end up with 75 IBU pilsners if you add a 60 min addition to a FWH.

Its the curious thing about FWH and 'perception' differing from the stat sheet. As scary as it may appear it only makes sense to brew by the perception of the final product rather than the apparent stats of the final product

 

[MattC]

No, it doesn't replace your normal bittering hops. See this article about FWH which spells that out and has a couple of other tips.

Your hop utilisation does not decrease, it increases with FWH. Its believed the perception of bitterness that changes but dont let this idea fool you into thinking you can adjust for the FWH IBU, you cant. If you do, you will end up with 75 IBU pilsners if you add a 60 min addition to a FWH.

Now these two statements (and the article linked to stl's post [by Gordan Strong] conflict each other. I guess the key word here is PERCEPTION and one cant make a valued judgement until they have experienced the same beer FWH and normal bittering additions themselves....

Thanks for the info boys.

Cheers

 

[felten]

The statement in the book is more recent, I'd stick with that. It looks like the other article is a few years old.

 

[mje1980]

I guess everybody is entitled to change their mind when more information comes to hand. I'm talking about Gordon Strong, not myself. In Strong's latest book he talks about FWH on page 68.
To quote, "The interesting thing about FWHing is the perceived effects. While measured bitterness is tested at perhaps 10 percent greater than that obtained from a 60 minute boil, the actual perceived bitterness seems lower to me because it has a smooth character. Some sources have suggested that a FWH addition should be calculated as providing the IBU contribution of a 20 minute addition. Since the actual measured bitterness is higher, I'd be concerned that this approach would throw off the balance of the beer. Calculate the bitterness as a 60 minute boil, but understand that it might seem lower to some palates."

I've always calcd FWH as a 20 min addition. Never had a problem with it. I calc'd it like that because at the time that's what most people were doing ( D conn over at tastybrew was a bit of a guru, so i followed his method ). I've done only FWH beers ( no other hops ) calc'd at 20 mins, and it was pretty much the same ( to my tastes ) as other bitters i had brewed with normal hopping schedules. Havent done it for a while, as i now do 90 minute boils, but i suppose i should. For a while i only did FWHing, with very good results.

Like a lot of methods/techniques in brewing, if it works for you, then it works!

 

[Mikedub]

I recently FWH Argons Little fellas recipe (62IBU), added 30% of late addition during sparging and followed the bittering schedule as written, Beermate calculated this as 82 IBUs, to date it does not taste overly bittered


I also like 90 min boils, (more time to stare at my shinny urn) I no chill so bittering additions go in at 45min. So the FWH is in step with my NC offsets I run off a couple of litres into a pot after the mash and FWH separately, I keep in the oven at 65-70 degrees till adding it to boil at 45 min. my science may well be kooky but it helps me sleep at night