400 Liters Lost To Infection

[Tony]

I am definatly going to give it a go. especially in my bottles, they need it.

cheers

 

[pint of lager]

Tony, I use it in my bottles, no brushing required. Rinse the bottle with tap water, add a teaspoon of PSR, fill with water, wait 24 hours, transfer the PSR solution to the next empty bottle, rinse cleaned bottle, store upside down till required and just sanitise.

I use some unusual yeasts and they throw a haze on the inside of the bottles that no amount of brushing will remove. Chemical cleaning is good. As someone else said, in some spots it does a better job that our favourite el cheapo napisan.

 

[Darren]

Just a warning

Tri Sodium Phosphate is banned in many areas of the US as it will cause algal blooms.

Hence the "phosphate free" tags often seen on modern cleaners.

So, dont chuck it down the drain or allow into waterways.

cheers

Darren

 

[oldbugman]

Wheres the local depot we can drop off out spent psr?

 

[Tony]

Thats probably because it messes with the chemicals the American government puts in the water to make the population complient and unaware of the subliminal fast food advertising.

This is Australia. We dont have any water in dams to get algal blooms.

hehe sorry, had to have a dig.

cheers

 

[Tony]

Ok

Its up around the 600 liter mark now.

I have had a few half decent beers but it has gone down hill again.

I have had to dig deep, just read my blog about the pain its causing me. Ive always had a passion for brewing beer, I work hard and research everything i do to make the best beer i can, and results have proved im on the right track but over the last 6 to 12 months its gone out the window.

I am thinking now it was a compound problem. I have found multiple problem areas now and as i eliminate them the infections get milder and less often.

So far i have found the firmenter with the pin hole cavity in the base that ended up smelling like a dead rabbit and was impervious to pure bleach!

Then the scum build up inside the inlet side of the tap that fed the fermenter from the kettle.

Then recently the yeast starter. My beloved tight ares stir plate. The erdinger (? :lol: ) flask with its dodgy rubber bung. I had sealed the loose airlock in the bung with a roll or 2 or masking tap years ago and never removed it. I just threw it in the steraliser holus bolus thinking it would be fine. I removed it and pulled the tape off to find nasty yellow sour shit built up in the tape layers. I was really upset with myself for that one.

But the infections are still there. Not as bad........ nowhere near as bad as before but still a mild sourness.

There must be something else!

There must be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I cracked malt for a brew tomorrow, put it in the mash tun on my brew rig. Filled the HLT with water ect and was about to fit the ball valve to the kettle outlet when i noticed an amber extract type scum on the inner lip of the ball valve.

I worked the valve a dozen or more times and the bit of scum got bigger.

NOT GOOD!

I stripped the ball valve to little bits and guess what i found.

Loads of scum and crud.

Cleaned, reasembled and ready to go for tomorrow.

Fingers crossed the beer will work out. I really really hope it will.

A note to all reading this............ look deaper than the eye can see. Pull everything apart and check it.......... especially if it comes into contact withj chilled boiled wort.

cheers

 

[enoch]

Have you tried going for the Jamil method of cooling? I went this way for a number of reasons but a big one was so that everything including the outlet to the fermenter had been well and truly cooked during the recirculation.

 

[Tony]

Na my kettle isnt set up for it. I have been contemplating a new kettle and if i do i will re-plum this feature in.

Till then i will have to stick to stripping the ball valve.

cheers

 

[Screwtop]

Tony, maybe time to think outside the square. Maybe the cause is NOT right before your eyes. Try one new fErmenter, split a batch between it and another of your old fErmenters. Plastics are porous and although your sanitisation regime may be flawless, there may still be a risk.

Do you know that the crud in your fittings is actually the source of the problem? Admittedly it's not ideal, not even acceptable in a clean brewery, but I bet some could be found in fittings in almost any home brewery. Naturally it seems logical that an organism has to have a home in which to survive and the gunk seems like the perfect medium, it might pay for you to take a scraping and put it in a new sterile jar from the chemist and drop it into a lab with some infected beer for comparison to see what they make of it. Darren might have some suggestions re this or even be able to help out if you could send it to him?

You poor bugger, you've been so methodical, must be really frustrating. Good on you for persisting!

Watching this thread closely now, really has me intrigued.

 

[newguy]

Tony, have you ever tried to ferment in a glass carboy? I'm absolutely paranoid about infections and it's been many years since I lost a batch to infection (which was very early in my homebrewing "career"). I always ferment in glass because I know for sure that I can sanitise it [nearly] perfectly. My kettle has a ball valve too, but I've never cleaned mine. Well, nothing more than running soap & water through it. I know it's all gunked up, but it has never caused me trouble. I run hot wort through it, into a CFC, and then into a carboy. No issues.

I'm sure you've mentioned it, but I can't find what you use to sanitise. What chemical do you use?

 

[Darren]

Tony, maybe time to think outside the square. Maybe the cause is NOT right before your eyes. Naturally it seems logical that an organism has to have a home in which to survive and the gunk seems like the perfect medium, it might pay for you to take a scraping and put it in a new sterile jar from the chemist and drop it into a lab with some infected beer for comparison to see what they make of it. Darren might have some suggestions re this or even be able to help out if you could send it to him?

You poor bugger, you've been so methodical, must be really frustrating. Good on you for persisting!

Watching this thread closely now, really has me intrigued.

Tony,
I can't help you with culture or identifying the bug. It will cost a bucketload to get this analysis done and it won't help anyhow as i am sure you have already tried every available sanitiser!

I think I asked this before, have you replaced your plastic fermenters yet??

cheers

Darren

 

[Tony]

I have bought a new fIrmenter and it did the same thing.

I have gone through a few different infections. To start with it was the white scum on the top and a massive "bloom" in the beer that made it cloudy and was near impossible to filter out.

Then It was this dirty tasteing bug with a bit of groath on top but no algal bloom in the beer.

Now its a slow building vinigar type soureness. It takes weeks to develop.

I have just stripped everything....... and i mean EVERYTHING down to individual components and bleached the hell out of it overnight.

I use bleach as my primary sanatiser, rinse and dry after 24 hrs soak, then before use, everything gets a 1 hr soak in Iodophur.

In getting there.........

I have thought about glass fIrmenters but i brew 50 liter batched and have enough trouble moving the plastics around.

now....... the CAP is ready to sparge, so im off to think positive

cheers

 

[newguy]

I use bleach as my primary sanatiser, rinse and dry after 24 hrs soak, then before use, everything gets a 1 hr soak in Iodophur.

I used to use iodophor too, but I switched to star san about 8 or 9 years ago and I won't use anything else. I've left my star san mixed in my my sanitising bucket, sealed, for about 9 months and it's still effective. Once I left a bucket of iodophor the same way - about 6 months - and it was full of.....I honestly don't know what they were. They kind of looked like jellyfish crossed with mushrooms. There were hundreds of them - all sizes ranging from tiny up to about 20cm across - evenly dispersed throughout the bucket. I haven't used iodophor since.

Since you're tackling everything else, I really recommend a sanitiser change. Also consider glass carboys. I do double batches too, but I split them into 2 x 23l carboys. Good luck tracking down the issue.

 

[Darren]

Have you tried high-temp plastic hoses to move stuff around (ie eliminated the elbows in your copper system)?

cheers

Darren

 

[Screwtop]

I have bought a new fIrmenter and it did the same thing.

I use bleach as my primary sanatiser, rinse and dry after 24 hrs soak, then before use, everything gets a 1 hr soak in Iodophur.

Tony, what strength is the bleach and what concentration do you use to sanitise your fAmenters?

I use an el-cheapo off the shelf 'Riviera" brand from Woolies,(sodium hypochlorite - no more than 3.7% when packed, whatever that means). I don't use it at non rinse strength as my purpose is to kill whatever it is possible to kill with the bleach solution prior to use. The label recommends 1/2 to 1 cup in 3L of water to sanitise a load of washing, allowing 10 min. For my fBermenters I use 250ml in 5L in the fCermenter and shake, left overnight to a few days and shaken up every now and then. Same as you I rinse this out with tap water until there is no smell and then use iodophor in 2L of water, shake about and leave for an hour or so then drain prior to filling from the kettle.

now....... the CAP is ready to sparge, so im off to think positive

You'll beat this b....rd, just hate to think of the wasted beer.

Screwy

 

[pablo_h]

<snip>
Now its a slow building vinigar type soureness. It takes weeks to develop.

I've always had that, always. All the brews I did years ago had that. Some of the brews I've had recently have had that too. Even spraying everything with starsan hasn't helped, or buying a new fermenter. Or boiling all the water hasn't helped much. The beer always tastes nicer in the fermenter than it does in the bottle, so I don't know if it's my bottles/bottling/priming/wine thief sampling, or an infection that's always there and takes weeks to develop.

 

[randyrob]

Hey Tony,

i know everyone is feeling for you here but i have been thinking about this last last night while watching the idiot box

are you able to

a) get a FWK of another brewer and ferment it with your gear?

B) brew on someone elses gear and ferment it with your own gear?

for me this will eliminate out problems on the "cold side" of brewing

looking forward to some progress on this!

stay positive, you have inspired me and i'm sure other brewers as well

Rob.

 

[Tony]

I Will take the advice on switching to a new sanatiser........... where can i get this Starsan stuff?

I buy the white king bleach, the strong stuff. I dilute about 1/2 - 2/3 of a cup in a 50 liter firmenter

If i put my starter flask in with its ring of scum buildup inside, it eats that off and disolves it to nothing in no time.

Darren........ you know more about germs than me, but how does it matter about the pipework pre boil when i boil it to death for 90 min? I do use silicon hose for racking and give it a good boil

Im kind of thinking it was the tap and the rubber bung in the starter flask. My No Chill beers that i brew in seperate gear to the Rig (esky and 50 liter kettle) have not getten infected when i have pitched dry yeast but did when i pitched liquids from the starter.

Thats what led me to investigate that.

I was trained to be a fault finder in my trade and im using my training of sorts with this.

Change one thing and see what happens.......... if you change 5 things and its fixed, you will never know what it was for next time.

thanks for your support folks.......... your my driving force on this.

cheers

 

[Screwtop]

I buy the white king bleach, the strong stuff. I dilute about 1/2 - 2/3 of a cup in a 50 liter firmenter

If i put my starter flask in with its ring of scum buildup inside, it eats that off and disolves it to nothing in no time.

Tony, please try a stronger strength bleach solution (250ml in 5L, with a teaspoon of white vinegar to drop the ph). And save water! no need to fill the fermenter.

Wash everything after use with napisan, fermenters, kettle (and your flask) everything, and rinse then leave to dry. A day or two before next brewday, use 5L of the bleach solution in the fermenters, shake every now and then until the morning of brewday, rinse out with clean water and put 2L of iodophor/starsan in the fermenter for an hour or so, tip out and leave to drain before filling.

 

[onescooter]

I recently listened to the basic brewing podcast on sanitizers with Charlie Talley from 5 Star. He says that bleach is a great sanitizer but needs to have the PH down to be effective. 1 oz per 5 gallons of bleach with 1 oz of vinegar is all that's needed and 30 secs is all the time that's needed. (http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr03-29-07.mp3)
I have always had infection problems, and in my hunt to solve my dramas I ended up keeping a small amount of wort from different stages of the brew to find out when the infection was starting. Assuming the vessels you keep your samples are clean and covered, there should be no infections coming through.
I also introduced a specific infection to some slants I had sitting around to be able to identify what outcomes these infections would have on the finished product.
I sincerely hope you sort out your issues, as I think we all know how tough it is to tip beer down the drain.
Cheers
Scott.