10 minute IPAs are good for school night brewing

[GrumpyPaul]

The thread title is a bit misleading for where this thread has ended up.

It started out my ignorance of mistakenly thinking a 10 minute IPA meant a 10minute boil.

Apart from me learning from my mistake it has got a lot o people thinking about and experimenting with shorter boil times, presumably because it can cut down on the brew time....

There has been lots of discussion about modern malts and minimum boil time required etc. - I have been following this with interest (mostly like a proud parent of the OP) and it seems that the consensus is 30 to 40 minutes is the go.

So don’t be confused by the 10min reference in the thread title...I don’t think anyone other the me and my ignorance at the beginning thinks 10mis is a good idea.

It is really cool to sit back and see people testing and challenging the conventional thinking to come up with new brewing processes. (bit like BIAB)

If short boil times become an accepted method of brewing I like the idea of thinking I was the ignorant father of the "30 minute boil process"...kind of like the dead beat dad that abandons his child on some loving and caring foster parent (Bribie G and others) to bring it up and nurture it properly.

 

[Kleiny]

This thread is a great read,

A couple of thoughts:

Boiling the wort for 60min or more has always had advantages set out in multiple texts, the main driver being hop isomerisation but also removal of unwanted proteins and DMS. With malters now trying to eliminate as much smm in their malts there is a big reduction of DMS forming, the main point is hop utilisation which happens to be a non issue for home brewers brewing IPA's, APA'sor ESB's and the like we want high hop aroma and flavour and can achieve a good bitterness within 30min boil times. If you are brewing commercially large batches then this would take a lot more hops and cost a lot more to produce your beer. As long as we achieving a good break and getting a clear product.

I wouldnt try a 30min boil for a pils or munich helles but for the other ale styles i mentioned above its a great time saving method.

On the mash side again with modern malts especially ale malts there is no reason you could not achieve conversion within 20-30min if you know how to complete a iodine test this would give you a true indication of conversion. This fact has always been in plain view its just a safe option to mash for 60min as it will guarantee conversion with out testing. The fact that some have reported a larger foamy head is also attributed to the shorter mash as longer mash has always had an effect of the head forming proteins.

I will definitely be trying a 30min mash 30min boil APA very soon.

This thread has been great. Thanks Kleiny

 

[Not For Horses]

Mashing converts SMM to DMS (and DMSO) - SMM only needs heat to convert. Also some DMS is created during the boil, but boiled off, to a point, never 0.
As I see it, most of the DMS youre ever going to get is already in the wort, post mash. Boiling gets rid of it at a half life of 40 mins. Thats why I was a bit shocked to read 10 min boil. As Bribie points out this thread has a consensus of 30 mins for boiling, which in theory is still going to retain more than half the DMS.

Still - this thread is about IPA's and really, IPA's mask everything. Sometimes even the fact its a beer.....

Flame-suit ON!!

Go back another step, DMS is also created during the kilning process.
Ale malt typically has MORE DMS than Pils malt but less precursor and Pils malt has more precursor and less DMS.

Also (apologies if this has already been mentioned) SMM is one of many DMS precursors.
Some of these precursors are not converted during mash or boil but can be converted by certain yeast strains.

DMS is a complex beast and can not be pinned down so simply to the length of the boil. There has been a fair bit of research into DMS production over the years and some interesting reading can be had online from the Journal of the Institute of Brewing (JOIB)

Throwing hops at it is a good way to mask it though!

 

[Not For Horses]

PS
I don't think you need a flame suit for a differing opinion. It's what drives good conversation.

 

[mckenry]

Go back another step, DMS is also created during the kilning process.
Ale malt typically has MORE DMS than Pils malt but less precursor and Pils malt has more precursor and less DMS.

Also (apologies if this has already been mentioned) SMM is one of many DMS precursors.
Some of these precursors are not converted during mash or boil but can be converted by certain yeast strains.

DMS is a complex beast and can not be pinned down so simply to the length of the boil. There has been a fair bit of research into DMS production over the years and some interesting reading can be had online from the Journal of the Institute of Brewing (JOIB)

Throwing hops at it is a good way to mask it though!

Hey NFH,
Yep, not trying to oversimplify DMS. It certainly is a complex beast. As you point out, DMS and it precursors are everywhere. What the homebrewer can do about most of it, is SFA. What the homebrewer can do about it is a vigourous long boil and ferment. I only entered into this thread with regard to a 10min boil (which has since evolved into 30mins) My point is, with DMS lurking at every stage of the process, why take a shortcut that may contribute to the problem?
Then I stated that IPA hopping is going to mask it anyway, so who cares? My flamesuit was donned for stating that an IPA can even mask the fact that its a beer and not a bitter, hoppy, smelly, alcoholic, liquid of some other incarnation. Just a joke. I do like an IPA.

 

[manticle]

Mashing converts SMM to DMS (and DMSO) - SMM only needs heat to convert. Also some DMS is created during the boil, but boiled off, to a point, never 0.
As I see it, most of the DMS youre ever going to get is already in the wort, post mash. Boiling gets rid of it at a half life of 40 mins. Thats why I was a bit shocked to read 10 min boil. As Bribie points out this thread has a consensus of 30 mins for boiling, which in theory is still going to retain more than half the DMS.

Still - this thread is about IPA's and really, IPA's mask everything. Sometimes even the fact its a beer.....

Flame-suit ON!!

You are right that SMM is converted at various points during processing but I'd be surprised if it were all converted in the mash. I would presume that mash and wort would be very strong in cooked corn and tomato sauce type flavours which I've never noticed it to be. I can certainly smell DMS evaporate during a boil and whirlpool stand.

My point I'm making above is that unconverted SMM remaining in finished beer can be converted at a later point during fermentation.

 

[mje1980]

First brew I do when I can ( in a splint at present ) I'm going to try it. Pale mild with wey pils and some cara bohemian and a bees dick of hops at 30 mins. Might try it with mangrove jacks Newcastle dark ale yeast.,

 

[marksy]

Gave this a whirl the other night, greatly reduced my brew time by several hours. Beer is bubbling away nicely, the only step I did differently was sparged for 20-30mins into the kettle with first wort hop addition and straight onto the heat. Once I done the sparge, I had an almost rolling boil which I did for the remaining time until 60mins had passed since I started the sparge.

Look forward to trying it now.

 

[Snow]

Inspired by this thread (which doesn't happen for me very often on this site anymore...), I brewed an English bitter with a 30 min mash and a 30 min boil. Recipe as follows:

[SIZE=14pt]Snow’s 30 Minute Bitter[/SIZE]
Batch Volume: 25L
Brewhouse efficiency: 70%
IBUs: 23
OG: 1.054

5kg TF Maris Otter 83.33 %
500g Maize flour 8.33 %
300g Wy Carawheat 5 %
200g Sugar 3.33 %
40g Challenger [7.2% AA] (30 min) 17.6 IBU
40g EKG [4.6% AA] (15 min) 5.4 IBU
20g Challenger [7.2 %] (flameout)
5g Chalk (Mash 30 min)
5g Gypsum (Mash 30 min)
English Ale (Craftbrewer) Dry Ale Yeast

Mashed at 67c for 30 mins
Mashout at 78c for 10 mins
Double batch sparge at 78-80c
Chilled with immersion chiller for 40 mins
Pitched yeast at 16c and fermented at 18c.

Got bang-on the estimated OG and volume, which surprised me, as I didn't trust my boil calcs or my efficiency estimation (just dropped 2% from my normal system efficiency), and I was worried about starch conversion. Hot break looked normal. I may have underdone the bitterness a tad, but c'est la vie!

Will give you an update when it's kegged and poured!

Cheers - Snow.

 

[[email protected]]

I haven't been on AHB for a while as the Ballarat Uni Brewing course satisfies (and then some) my thirst for information/knowledge in brewing.

The key thing about boiling the wort is that it is not necessarily all about time but the vigour or turbulence of the boil (temp if you are under pressure) to remove volatiles and also protein coagulation (hot break). I have attached a paper from The Institute of Brewing and Distilling that gives some insight into modern day boiling processes. Most commercial systems are always trying to reduce boil time (look up Merlin System = 35 min boil) which leads to energy and time saving as well as a reduction in colour formation through Maillard Reactions - to make those beers even paler! Boil vigour/kettle shape is also why professional kettles can also get higher hop utilisation.

If you look at the paper it has a graph (hard to read) that shows you want to aim for a 5% evaporation rate to reduce any grassy/grainy, fruity and sulphidic character in the final beer.

The question of DMS. SMM is converted to DMS when the temperature is > 80-85 degC. The precursor SMM is present right through the process of malting and is generated in the rootlets. For malts that are not pilsner/lager these are kilned at higher temperatures ~100C. At these temperatures a portion of the SMM is converted to DMS and volatised off resulting in a reduced amount of SMM. With Pilsner malts these are kilned at fairly low temperatures ~80degC, to reduce maillard reactions and colour formation, which means a larger proportion of SMM remains in the malt. The maltsters use other techniques during the germination phase to help reduce the SMM precursor. DMS won't occur whenever the temperature is below 80 degC and won't be a problem after the wort is cooled.

DMSO occurs during kilning by conversion of some of the SMM. DMSO is water soluble and is not removed during the boil (not heat labile) is in the wort at relatively high levels. DMSO ihas greater presence in higher kilned malts (ale malt). DMSO can be converted to DMS by an enzyme in the yeast. However, the enzyme prefers to convert another substrate that is also present so the tendency to develop DMS in the fermentation is generally low but is dependent on yeast strain, nitro gen level (depletion = more DMSO->DMS), and temperature (lower T = more DMSO->DMS). Process is generally higher with lager yeasts. Gram positive Bacteria rapidly reduce DMSO -> DMS and can be associated with DMS aroma.

What does it mean for the Home Brewer?

If I was going for a reduced boil, I would aim for a minimum of 5% evaporation and would boil with as much vigour as I could to aid in volatisation and protein coagulation and adjust my time to suit. Use only a highly kilned malt, ale malt or possibly even better munich malt to reduce the SMM (DMS precursor).

Hope that adds a little more science and theory behind the issues.

Have a look at the IBD site it has a number of freely available papers on brewing that anyone can get hold of.

View attachment 02 - The function of wort boiling1.pdf

 

[Bribie G]

Mate they have been hammering it into your Cerebral Cortex down there at Ballarat :beerbang:

Excellent advice and thanks, I'll be dragging out my over the side element to boil more vigorously in the urn. Point taken about my Weyermann Premium Pilsner and Floor Malted, I've been doing an hour or more boil with them.

 

[Kiwifirst]

Fascinating stuff and thank you. I would say my boil could be best described as gentle, I will obviously now review this and have a rip roaring one on the go. Now to work out the water required for said boil.

 

[Snow]

Inspired by this thread (which doesn't happen for me very often on this site anymore...), I brewed an English bitter with a 30 min mash and a 30 min boil. Recipe as follows:

Snow’s 30 Minute Bitter
Batch Volume: 25L
Brewhouse efficiency: 70%
IBUs: 23
OG: 1.054

5kg TF Maris Otter 83.33 %
500g Maize flour 8.33 %
300g Wy Carawheat 5 %
200g Sugar 3.33 %
40g Challenger [7.2% AA] (30 min) 17.6 IBU
40g EKG [4.6% AA] (15 min) 5.4 IBU
20g Challenger [7.2 %] (flameout)
5g Chalk (Mash 30 min)
5g Gypsum (Mash 30 min)
English Ale (Craftbrewer) Dry Ale Yeast

Mashed at 67c for 30 mins
Mashout at 78c for 10 mins
Double batch sparge at 78-80c
Chilled with immersion chiller for 40 mins
Pitched yeast at 16c and fermented at 18c.

Got bang-on the estimated OG and volume, which surprised me, as I didn't trust my boil calcs or my efficiency estimation (just dropped 2% from my normal system efficiency), and I was worried about starch conversion. Hot break looked normal. I may have underdone the bitterness a tad, but c'est la vie!

Will give you an update when it's kegged and poured!

Cheers - Snow.

and here's the result!

A little cloudy due to my poor racking technique. Nice malt profile, great hop flavour but a little under done in aroma. Bitterness turned out ok. I'm convinced the 30 min approach works for this style. Would be keen to try it on an APA.

 

[Kiwifirst]

My APA's doing this have worked well. The 30 minute mash works out to be a bit longer after doing some re circulation and then draining. I had to bump up the hop amount for bitterness as the first one was way under bitter taste with only 30 mins.
I love having this process down pat now, next one I am going to try it with a no chill, which would mean I could run a AG brew on a week night.

 

[Snow]

That's good to hear, Kiwi. I'll definitely give an APA a go next time.

Cheers - Snow

 

[Kiwifirst]

Tried the new APA Friday. It is a little light on bitterness. I had it set at high 40's in my software, but i do not think it is anywhere near that.

I am not convinced that it was the short boil time though, I was using a homemade hop basket and had put 120g of hops in there, I think it was too small for that volume of hops and basically compacted the hops and I don't think they got the advantage of the boil.

Added half a bottle of hop extract (7 ml?) into the keg and it seems about right now. Saved.

 

[buckerooni]

fantastic thread, this has made school night brewing a reality for me and have been loving it, been busting out brews like it ain't no thing!

 

[buckerooni]

got me thinking with the trub vs non trub fermenting http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/, I'm gonna skip the whirlpool and dump most of it in the no-chill jerry (and leave it to the gelatine to clear up). This will mean I should be able to turn one around in under 3 hrs from urn on to wash up.

will try a weekend 60/60 brew of the same recipe one day soon and see if there's much diff...

 

[Tahoose]

I'm not really into fermenting in cubes just cause I'd rather stick my hand inside the fermenter with a wet cloth and clean the krausen off.
On occasions where I have alot of trub in the cube I either use the tap to pitch into the fermenter or siphon into the fermenter and leave the trub behind.

 

[droid]

wow what a thread! - just read the whole thing, squirming around in my chair towards the end tho

thumbs up to grumpy and the people that didn't naysay

for me as a pale ale brewer this is fantastic news, i'm going 30(to 40 with sparge) mash and hard boil for 30 with marris otter pale ale
though since some have reported a lighter bitterness I am going to put a handful into the mash instead <edit = hops> done that before and it was all good

awesome stuff - thanks, school nights for me