Your Beer, Your Kids And Your Attitude

[bignath]

I dunno to be honest. Some people lack the capacity to think outside the square the media keeps them in. Some people genuinely are teetotallers. Some people take pleasure in sticking their noses in other peoples business. Some people give up their freedom for their perceived 'safety' way too easily.

The common theme is the lack of empathy. Most people are happy for things they don't care about to be banned, as long as they can still do the things they do care about.

There have been some good points raised so far for both sides of the coin, but this one....

Mark^******* - i would vote you to run the country for sure... I completely agree with this comment mate.

My dad (who used to brew when i was a little bloke, stopped, and then took it back up again a few years ago) told me:

"if you want to drink beer, don't ever do it behind my back. We'll go to the bottle shop, buy a box and we'll sit down and drink it as two adults in a safe environment".

"if you want to try cigarettes, don't ever do it behind my back. We'll go to the servo, buy a pack and come home and smoke them".

With the cigarettes. I hid them from him for a week or two and then felt so guilty, i opened a fresh pack right in front of him and said sorry. I've since quit a few years ago.

With the beer. I had a few sips when i was real young (less than 10yo) and swore i'd never drink it. Tried it again at around 15 or 16 and thought it wasn't soooooo bad. Then remembered dad's advice and was honest about going out for a drink once i was legal.

to this day i still feel guilty about the cigarette stashing, but i learnt my lesson.

I have two little tackers, and not quite sure how i will approach this topic with them, as they (him more than her) are becoming increasingly aware and interested in my brewing practises. My boy when he was just turning 4, told the cop up the road, "my dad's got a freezer full of hops (flowers) and he needs them to make beer".

time will tell how i handle the drinking thing, but it's an interesting topic for sure....

bignath

 

[BjornJ]

Coupla things to think about and fuel the discussion:

3. Thomas J. - Denmark ranks equal with Britain in OECD countries in terms of under age drinking (number of times 13-15yo have been drunk). Having said that if I lived in a country where it was dark half the year I would be tempted to get loaded every night. I still remember going out for breakfast in Copenhagen with some locals and getting a free shot of schnapps with my breakfast platter. SKOL!



Stew

Don't blame The Darkness for drinking.

In Norway our "natives" are called Same, or Lapp. They were driven North by the vikings and now live in the extreme north of Norway, Finland and to some extent Sweden.
They have not been treated nicely, to be short and sharp.

They drink less than "white" Norwegians though. So less work, more social welfare, separate language, looooooooong dark, depressive winters that never end, and they drink less.
(I know after doing military service for a year up there. They have massive parties when the sun comes back in May).

statistical evidence: http://mighealth.net/no/index.php/Substance_abuse

But then again we always hear of the Finish drinking way to much, sitting in the dark woods of Finland getting depressed.

Maybe the darkness has an influence after all


Seriously,
I agree with teaching kids to drink in moderation.
They will drink.
They will experiment, learn, challenge themselves and others.
Let's give them some ballast by being good role models, drinking in moderation and letting them have the occational sip.
Make it natural, normal, non-tabu.
But with clear limits, "you are not old enough yet".
I believe that is more healthy than trying to completely ban alcohol.
I will let my daughter have the odd half a sip to show her the taste is not something she wants.
THen when she is older let her try in small doses at home, rather than letting the first ever try be at some party far from home.


Anyway,
my 2c.

Bjorn

 

[Kai]

The reason for me typing this? A couple of my nieces are allowed to have a drink at family gatherings, even though they are 16 and 17. They are only allowed one and their parents reason that they would rather them try alcohol under their watchful eye than at unsupervised parties. What made me wince was the choice of drink - alcopops. Their introduction to alcohol is some fluorescent blue concoction which is as sugary as the soft drinks they have always consumed. Maybe my opinions are a little coloured by snobbery, but I think the parents good intentions are being undone by the choice of beverage.

I read this, thought back and had to add: I remember once when I was in my early teens (or maybe younger) I was allowed to have a West Coast Cooler.

I think I chose mango. Or maybe peach?

All things considered I think I turned out OK (for the most part)

 

[Bribie G]

I don't have any kids, but I'd let them sip my home brew to see what it tastes like, and when they're at drinking age (about 15/16) I'd let them drink but make sure they know some advice before hand.

The girls you've talked about probably drink lolly-water every weekend. And yes you are being a bit snobby about it.

Wagga, each to their own, but the government are ******s and the Australian drinking culture doesn't need changing. The Australian wowser culture is what needs changing.

So is that you in your sig, you obviously started early
My two 20-somethings have turned out fine, they have a pint or two but no more when they are round here for a visit. Their stepfather is German and they would always have one glass of wine at Xmas as teenagers and that was about it. When my oldest - who came back to live with me during high school - turned 18 he bought a bottle of Bundy to see what all the fuss was about and it was still sitting gathering dust in his room 2/3 full when he moved out the next year.

 

[jyo]

Personal experience is a bitch of a thing, because everyone has some.

My Dad and Granddad used to let my brothers and I drink from an early age. It was 'sips' and shandys from age 7 or so, and at age 13 I was allowed to drink a stubbie or two or a scotch and coke. Many of my mates were brought up with the same boundaries drawn by their parents. My Dad always said that you can enjoy a drink without getting pissed. I saw him pissed many times.

Yes I was a binge drinker as a teenager. Yes I was a binge drinker as an adult. I still binge drink on occasion. So did/do my aforementioned mates.

I also have mates whose parents never drank/never drink. These friends were binge drinkers as teenagers. They were binge drinkers as adults. They still binge drink on occasion. They however, had to hide their drinking as teenagers, or come to my place!

Our 18 year old girl was brought up being allowed to have a sip of wine from about the age of 13. She was always told that you don't need to get pissed to enjoy yourself. She has seen me pissed a few times.
She binge drinks on rare occasions. She is far more responsible and in control with alcohol than I was at her age...far more responsible.

My 3 year old girl sees me have a beer or two on most days. She has asked for a sip a few times and was told no. She will continue to be told no until she is much older than when I was allowed to.
Much of the current research which has been mentioned suggests that no alcohol as children is the best way to go, but rather education. I think its about finding a balance between the two.
Cheers, John.

 

[warra48]

I think the behaviour of parents so far as alcohol is concerned does influence kids. Undoubtedly most, if not all, will experiment with alcohol or tobacco at some stage, but if they've been shown responsible behaviour by their parents, there's a good chance they will eventually come to their senses.

I grew up with my parents never drinking, other than a beer or small glass of liquor at family events, and a bottle of red at Easter and Christmas.

I've never been a large imbiber, although I did go through a short period in my early/mid 20s when I consumed quite heavily at times. However, I grew out of that, and since then have always gone for quality over quantity.

Our two kids grew up with their mother never drinking alcohol, and with myself having a drink about once a week. Whenever I had a drink they were welcome to try some of it. They've never seen me drunk, and my alcohol consumption was always as a thirst quenching beer, or a glass of wine as an adjunct to a meal. We never drank just for the sake of drinking alcohol.

The result is our daughter doesn't drink at all, and our son is a very light occasional drinker only.

I think the same applies to smoking, neither my wife nor I smoke, nor do our daughter and son. I know our daughter experimented with smoking and very probably other stuff during her time at Uni, but she is well past that now.

 

[brettprevans]

Wish I could remember where the last thread on this topic is as its a very interesting/important/topical issue that is ideal for a forum like ours to discuss because as brewers we appreciate tge art taste etc and have a differant tilt on alc than most.

That all being said I was allowed sips when I was 9 I think. Mostly good reds and usually only on speci al occasions. I had to tell them what I tasted etc. I developed a love of wine and collect wine ever since I could buy it. It was a solid sensible respect for alc. My first full beer was Xmas day and I was 13 or 14. 1 beer only and at was at a 4star restaurant with my immediate family whilst my old man was cooking in the kitchen (he was head chef). I still remember that day. I think from then on I could have 1 beer or 1/2 wine at Xmas but that was the only time. It was only sips to try things any other time

All my alc experianced growing up good wine port etc gave me an appreciation for quality.

My 2 kids (4&3) get to smell my beer wine etc but no tasting till their older. They know what beer wine etc looks like and what it's made from. We educated them. Same as they know that beef is from cows lamb is a sheep etc, know what most veggies at a supermarket or our garden are, like to cook etc. Education. Teach them. If there is a vaccine they will go fill it with whatever they can find

Now obviously this isn't going to prevent them from doing anything stupid but it greatly decreases tge risk that they will or the severity of what they do.

 

[Pennywise]

My oldest (nearly 4) doesn't even want to try my beer , he eats half the grain while I'm making it though :lol:

The only opinion I have on the issue though is it's hard to have one. Saying that, I'd be happy to give my son a sittle sip of beer if he asked, but it would be just that and I like the idea of getting them to describe the drink, and get a sense of appreciation about it's flavour. It's kinda hard to judge how someone elses kid will take on that resposibility, something only really a parent of said kid can judge. It's just a pity that some parents shouldn't be

 

[jasonharley]

I have got 3 young boys and I have gained three axioms for application from these discussions

1. Serving anymore than a sip or small serving of alcohol for children or young teenagers on a regular basis is harmless for their cognitive development

2. Education is the key - the best education is consistent honest explanation of all aspect of alcohol backed up by good example..... and then overlied by societal education

3. Socialisation for drinking comes from family, peer group and wider society. You can really only influence the first directly (family), you have help "steer" your children in the second (peer group) but as they get older the final decision is theirs. The third (wider society) is becoming increasing problematic as a monolithic societal culture is no longer present. Issues of multiculturalism, the reemergence of religion, the "ideas competition" between government education campaigns, traditional media, the new media, and the arts.... all result in a smorgasbord of ideas and behaviours .... some dangerous, some exciting, some irrelevant and some neo-conservative. The point is your influence on other people is limited and depends on a wider range of factors, some of which may turn out unpredictable.

The last point is instructive for me. I grew up in a conservative Christian family. The Church I went to forbade any drinking of alcohol..... despite alcohol being the focus of Jesus's first miracle. A visible indicator that you became a "christian" was whether you stopped drinking piss. That church culture was a peer group attempting to exert its influence. I move from that peer group to another peer group that was the complete opposite... it was called the Army.... and it was a deadset drinking culture. But overlaying all that was society, which back in the 70-80's, Australia was still a pro-drinking culture but that changed through the 90's onwards when I went to parties and some people drank coke. Honestly, it is hard to honestly pinpoint how I was influenced to drink alcohol. The interaction between individuals and their surrounding is complex and therefore parents, after trying all they can to nuture their children into the world, should not be given a hard time if their children do go off the rails. A bit of humility goes a long way.

Thanks for the discussion..... it has been great

cheers
5 eyes

 

[MarkBastard]

+1

Oh this is exactly what i was going to post so i will save the time and agree!

My Dad worked for Tooheys all my life. I grew up with drinking all around me, but it was always in moderation, and i was always alowed a taste when i asked.

YEah i snuck piss here and there when i was a teen but thats a human nature thing of the teenager. If Alcahol was not available and C4 was...... i would have gone and blown **** up! Its how it is wit hsome kids, that will never change.

I had a period of binging but this was linked with a period of deep depression and a dark part of my life where i lost most of my late 20's to working 14 hr days, 7 days a week.

I dug out of that hole eventually and turned to the finer things in life, i wanted to experience what life had to offer, and still do.

quality over quantity!

The only time i have been fall down drunk in the last 15 years in when Ducatiboystu came for the day and we pollished off a bottle of turky before lunch...... and then some after.

I will NEVER get that drunk again i tell ya!

I have been doing some thinking about all this lately. I have a step son...... turnes 17 this year. When my bro and i sample a fine single malt, i will let him have a sniff and say...... smell the peat smoke, or the leather, or the salt. We talk to him about flavours and aromas, and i can see he is interested in the fine side of it. I talk to him about drinking responsibly and what happens if you dont...... how it can all go wrong and cause your drunk, you dont know till its too late.

He has just got his L's and i liken alcahol to driving. I strongly believe driving should part of highschool education, and when a 16 yearold gets his or her L's they should already know the basics of car control before they are let loose on the road in traffic.

What happens when a fresh learner gets in a car and even under adult supervision, tries to drive on a busy road?

Its all bad.

Alcahol IMO is similar, not the same but similar in theory

cheers

How much do you drink now though? Because if anyone on this forum doesn't "binge drink" according to the governments definition, why the hell do you even home brew?

Me personally, I had my 'dark days' too but I don't think they were alcohol related at all, just other personal circumstances.

I for example haven't drunk at all this year, but when I do drink I'm not going to have 2 shandies and pretend I'm "responsible". I like the taste of beer but lets be honest, the reason I acquired the taste was because I drank it to get drunk. I now sometimes drink for the taste reasons and to relax slightly from time to time, say on a week night, but I'll be damned if I'm going to a party and having anything less than 10 beers.

 

[Tony]

I have 3 or 4 a night on a week night and a few more on a friday night/saturday. I dont know what the government guideline is but id say im well and truly a binger! I may "binge" but i dont drink them all in 15 min and i dont get really drunk. Usually one an hour and 90% of the time i would be fine to drive.

And to me, Bingeing is drinking lots in one hit to get drunk, not enjoying 6 or 8 or 10 beers between lunch time and bed time!

And my dark days wernt a result of alcahol...... Alcahol was my escape and i used it in excess as such.

I must say.... its good to see some good beer and brew discussions on here of late with no fights

Lovin it! its like the old days.

 

[gone_fishing_]

I allow my kids a sip every now and then.
I drink about 4-6 beers a night.
I have binged.
I suspect that alot of this "research" into the ill effects of alcohol is being driven by the muslim communities

GF

 

[manticle]

Really?

Pushes for temperance, reduced alcohol intake etc have been around for a long time and most have bugger all to do with Islam. I'd question what influence the muslim communities you refer to have on skewing peer reviewed studies.

Don't have kids but I let my 15 year old nephew have a small glass of beer when he visits. I don't think a whole lot of harm will come his way from it.

As for bingeing - I drink far too much of my own product and far to much of other products (research purposes only) than is good for me. I'm OK with that though.

 

[braufrau]

Hee hee ... this reminds me, the other day I gave SHWMBO (7) a sip of decaf coffee and i remembered the look of horror on my friends face when i had offered her daughter a cup when she said she wanted a drink. But this same friend lets her kids guzzle coke which has 5x the caffeine and is totally engineered. Not only coke but *diet* coke!

Well i think I am just like those who want their kids to understand that alcohol should be treated with respect. Caffeine can make you completely batty and should also be treated with respect and I hope my daughter grows up knowing that both diet coke and alco-pops should never pass her lips.

 

[braufrau]

How much do you drink now though? Because if anyone on this forum doesn't "binge drink" according to the governments definition, why the hell do you even home brew?

Because even though HWMBO has 1 stubby a night (two if he thinks he can get it past me) a 6 pack of comparable beer is $16, as much as we spend on meat most weeks! So he's not having that!

 

[Lecterfan]

I'd question what influence the muslim communities you refer to have on skewing peer reviewed studies.

The influence (if there even is any) would be insignificant compared to the epidemiological need for data to curb type 2 diabetes in Australia. THAT is what is driving an enormous amount (not all) of research into alcohol. There is really no need for this disease to exist in bipedal mammals (no offence, that is not a judgment call, that is a fairly basic considered opinion based on a number of peer reviewed references).

I have no problems with children having a taste but I think there have been some very pertinent points raised by Waggastew earlier.

I also agree that the Gov definitions of "binging" unnecassarily labels many people without taking into account a whole host of other factors.


Still, good discussion! Sorry to wander OT.

 

[brettprevans]

anything more than 4 standard drinks a day is classified as binge drinking.
Hello I drink 2 pints and in a binge drinking. It's fkn garbage.

 

[gone_fishing_]

data to curb type 2 diabetes in Australia. THAT is what is driving an enormous amount (not all) of research into alcohol. There is really no need for this disease to exist in bipedal mammals (no offence, that is not a judgment call, that is a fairly basic considered opinion based on a number of peer reviewed references).

I suspect that type 2 diabetes is being driven by consumption of PASTA and softdrinks.

As for influences, there are numerous high-profile researchers residing within Australia who are devout muslims. They will even quote literature that shows that PORK is bad for you.

We all know that those who are funded, by the government, to do any research
rely heavily on producing "positive outcome" research and publications or the funding dries-up!! We also know that only about 10% of PRP are actually true.

Interesting that alcohol fuelled violence has "sky rocketted" in the past couple of years (B*llshit). What then is the cause of this sudden increase? The mainstream media?
Some individuals with loud but influential voices?

Off track again

GF

 

[dcx3]

Its O.K. to let your kids have a taste of the froth every now and again its all apart of growing up.
But i would be very cautious of giving them any more then that,recent studies from the U.K. have shown that early exposure to alc/drugs can "Hardwire" the brain towards addiction later on in life.
My girls (4) love the smell of beer and love to help me make it,(They do all the little safe jobs for me)They are a great little bottle washing brigade also.
They see beer as something fun we can make together,and for the most part i love their help.

 

[manticle]

I suspect that type 2 diabetes is being driven by consumption of PASTA and softdrinks.

As for influences, there are numerous high-profile researchers residing within Australia who are devout muslims. They will even quote literature that shows that PORK is bad for you.

We all know that those who are funded, by the government, to do any research
rely heavily on producing "positive outcome" research and publications or the funding dries-up!! We also know that only about 10% of PRP are actually true.

Interesting that alcohol fuelled violence has "sky rocketted" in the past couple of years (B*llshit). What then is the cause of this sudden increase? The mainstream media?
Some individuals with loud but influential voices?

Off track again

GF

Do you have any information to back any of these claims up?

eg. causes of diabetes (do Italians have a higher than average rate of diabetes 2?)

Numbers of high profile muslim researchers in alcohol and health research?

Percentage of peer reviewed papers that are factual (as in where does 10% come from)?

Pork probably is bad for you - most piggeries certainly aren't trying to produce the healthiest most natural product around. Any info on the health benefits of pork? Wild pig possibly has numerous health benefits like most game meats but the stuff we get sold in general?

I'll eat bacon, drink myself stupid and quite happily walk through the CBD without thinking it's any worse than it was 10-15 years ago but I'm curious as to these fairly generalised statements you are making and whether there's substance to them that you haven't yet disclosed.