You Can Buy Anything On Ebay

[captaincleanoff]

the point I'm trying to make, is people sell allllll sorts of stupid stuff on eBay... That doesn't mean everyone is going to follow their example

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

next minute...Ray Martin is doing a special, and TodayTonight will run a 1/2 hr special tittled..Beer brewers flauting the law.....

Where is Alan Jones when you need him......

 

[AndrewQLD]

All it takes is some old bitty going to the papers and saying, "Look, these homebrew people are selling alcohol unchecked. Think of the children!" You may be overestimating our reputation with the rest of the community: To them, we are a bunch of bogans trying to save a buck, and getting around paying excise like everyone else, based on some little loophole.

As a community, it is our duty to stop people who flaunt the illegal side of this hobby. Anyone who tries to sell brewery kegs online gets what they deserve. Anyone who sells their homebrew in public ought to be fined, and shunned by the community: that's not us.

Edit: And people who sell their beer in private (yeah, I'm talking about the "donation jar on the fridge" people) should have a long hard look at themselves.

Quite right Mark, however I think what some people are saying is you could have voiced your indignation differently, like perhaps notifying Ebay who would have removed the item immediately. Sadly I think you are drawing more attention to his sale than he did :lol: .

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

the point I'm trying to make, is people sell allllll sorts of stupid stuff on eBay... That doesn't mean everyone is going to follow their example

It started with 1 Person selling stupid stuff onj eBay.....now look at how many are doing it....

 

[schooey]

Some arseclown in Perth is selling his whole life. House, job, friends, car, jetski, the whole shebang...

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Some arseclown in Perth is selling his whole life. House, job, friends, car, jetski, the whole shebang...

Swap him a crate of homebrew, but keep the stolen milk crate :lol:

 

[chovain]

Quite right Mark, however I think what some people are saying is you could have voiced your indignation differently, like perhaps notifying Ebay who would have removed the item immediately. Sadly I think you are drawing more attention to his sale than he did :lol: .

Yep, but only among our isolated community, and potentially the OLGR. OLGR isn't going to recommend law changes based on an isolated incident. In fact they're likely to see it as self-policing to some extent (homebrewers are willing to dob people like that in).

Edit: And if some old bitty sees the ebay item now and kicks up a fuss, we'll have this thread as evidence that we can police ourselves.

 

[kevnlis]

I am perfectly happy to swap HB for HB, or even HB for commercial beer. I see nothing wrong with doing that, and am not sure there is a law prohibiting it?

I do agree that people selling or in any way collecting money for HB should be ashamed, I was just pointing out that there may have been other things to try before dobbing him in.

 

[EK]

All it takes is some old bitty going to the papers and saying, "Look, these homebrew people are selling alcohol unchecked. Think of the children!" You may be overestimating our reputation with the rest of the community: To them, we are a bunch of bogans trying to save a buck, and getting around paying excise like everyone else, based on some little loophole.

As a community, it is our duty to stop people who flaunt the illegal side of this hobby. Anyone who tries to sell brewery kegs online gets what they deserve. Anyone who sells their homebrew in public ought to be fined, and shunned by the community: that's not us.

Edit: And people who sell their beer in private (yeah, I'm talking about the "donation jar on the fridge" people) should have a long hard look at themselves.

True, the "think of the children" crowd do tend to over-react like that. Putting a bloke up for (potentially) a $5000 fine and 6 months jail is a bit harsh though, however, I think it is more likely that he would get a small fine as opposed to the maximum.

While it is in our interests to stop such people, I wouldn't want home brewers to also be known as a pack of harsh bastards touting a civic duty to be done as well as being a "bunch of bogans dodging excise". That would be worse. Perhaps notifying ebay of the illegality of such a sale would have been more appropriate?

Anyone selling stolen brewery kegs should be reported as this is a case of home brewers getting a bad name from thievery (as well as the person involved being a thief). The question then must be asked: are the milk crates (that this beer in the ebay auction appears in) themselves stolen? If so, then this guy probably should be reported to the relevant authorities. Such thefts push up the price of many items that pack supermarket and bottle-shop shelves.

At the end of the day you have to live up to your own sense of right and wrong, at least Mark had the guts to do something...I might have just passed it by without thinking of the possible ramifications to the hobby which we all enjoy.

anyhow...just my 5c.

EK

 

[the_fuzz]

Yep, but only among our isolated community, and potentially the OLGR. OLGR isn't going to recommend law changes based on an isolated incident. In fact they're likely to see it as self-policing to some extent (homebrewers are willing to dob people like that in).

Edit: And if some old bitty sees the ebay item now and kicks up a fuss, we'll have this thread as evidence that we can police ourselves.

<Start Rant>

I actually think you live in a fantasy land -

A ) You actually think the OLGR are going to respond to your complaint
B ) You actually think old ladies troll through ebay looking at Home Brew items and then will complain about beer.........
C ) You actually think the OLGR is going to go "Oh, yay the HB community is policing everything for us, yay, they are so good, I mean that one guy would have sold some beer to some guy which really could have caused WWIII - thank Christ for Mark, he saved the world".

I actually cannot believe you really did this and then you even have a go at people who have a donation jar - you are demented. If someone is giving someone a lift and asks for petrol money, do you report them for not having a Taxi License? I also assume that you do not wash your HB equipment with tap water or if you do only on Sundays and Wednesday Nights - otherwise, I'm going to have to report you to the Water Wasters Police - I also hope that you do not download anything that you shouldn't as this give us IT geeks a bad name, thus I will have to report you............ HTFU

You are the one bring a bad name to the community with your Police State....

I think people have some kind of weird perception of the world we live in :blink: strange, really strange

</End Rant>

 

[chovain]

True, the "think of the children" crowd do tend to over-react like that. Putting a bloke up for (potentially) a $5000 fine and 6 months jail is a bit harsh though, however, I think it is more likely that he would get a small fine as opposed to the maximum.

They absolutely wouldn't give someone a fine of more than a couple of hundred bucks for selling 6 crates of beer on eBay. That's reserved for the people who keep doing it after being convicted of it, or who are selling hugely commercial quantities.

Anyone selling stolen brewery kegs should be reported as this is a case of home brewers getting a bad name from thievery (as well as the person involved being a thief). The question then must be asked: are the milk crates (that this beer in the ebay auction appears in) themselves stolen? If so, then this guy probably should be reported to the relevant authorities. Such thefts push up the price of many items that pack supermarket and bottle-shop shelves.

At the end of the day, alternatives for all this stolen stuff exist. You can buy 50L kegs legally. You can buy milk crates new. People are just being cheap or lazy when they take them from the side of the road. We're not talking about stealing a loaf of bread to feed the family here: We're talking about taking a $100 keg, or a $15 crate to support a hobby. It might seem to some like they're just taking it from "the man", but I suspect they'd see it differently if it were their car's hub cap, or their letter box.

 

[kevnlis]

C'mon people. The guy is doing something illegal. He gets what he deserves.
With all the attention that's being shown to binge drinking etc, it's actually feasible that some wowser will say"lets take a look at these homebrew laws" and HELLO, here comes some dickhead with a bill to go through parliament while no-one's looking.......
I agree with Mark, people who unthinkingly do stupid things sometimes shine a very crooked light on the rest of us - when the rest of us are doing nothing wrong........what would we all do if the govt decided that the easiest way to stamp out that sort of thing would be to disallow the process or item that makes it possible...it happens every day.....semi automatic rifles as an example......of the massive numbers of legitimate gun owners across the country, they all lose out because of one or two people who have in the past lost the plot and gone on a rampage......so it gets blamed on the gun (the homebrew) and not the idiot behind it......and the govt then thinks that there will be no more shootings because if you have to operate a bolt action it will of course be too much trouble..............pfffffffttttttttt.....
If we don't self police it will be done by someone else with less of an understanding and even less care.

I wonder if guns are a fair comparison? Could they really police HB even if they wanted? It would cost them more to try to stop people than they could ever lose to "tip jars" and dodgy deals in back alleys.

EDIT: Removed the name of the poster because they deleted the post.

 

[domonsura]

Yes, but WWWH, little old biddys DO kick up a stink about this sort of stuff and screw up our social liberties every day. There are people in govt that DO take that approach to things.....and sometimes when that machine gets moving it can be hard to stop.
I agree with Mark in some respects. The guy on eBay was offering to sell grog illegaly. End of story. I make no comparisons to donation jars even though I don't agree with them either, but the fact is that what he was doing was illegal, and he deserves to get his ass kicked for it, because sometimes we DO all lose rights & priviledges because of one damned idiot doing the wrong thing........semi-auto rifles....laser pointers...........riding bikes without helmets.........the world is not what it used to be, that's for sure.

 

[domonsura]

hehe kevinlis, I went for the full edit, you were too quick (That post was mine everyone, I just thought I had a better way of putting it). The gun analogy wasn't entirely appropriate I suppose, but it is an example of what happens when social critics & govt get hold of something. (And something that annoys me, because I don't think having a bolt action would slow me down enough to make a difference to the people at the receiving end....so it's one of those stupid rule changes that makes no difference to the end result)
Selling homebrew is illegal. It's one of the conditions that was placed on us being allowed to do it in the first place. The definition of 'sale' may be flexible to some, but in the ebay guy case it's quite clear that it is a sale not a donation jar. And stuff like that does get attention, just last month 60 minutes was spotlighting sale of stolen and counterfit property on eBay. All it takes is someone with nothing better to do to introduce a bill for legislative change to the homebrew laws..........

 

[AndrewQLD]

They absolutely wouldn't give someone a fine of more than a couple of hundred bucks for selling 6 crates of beer on eBay. That's reserved for the people who keep doing it after being convicted of it, or who are selling hugely commercial quantities.



At the end of the day, alternatives for all this stolen stuff exist. You can buy 50L kegs legally. You can buy milk crates new. People are just being cheap or lazy when they take them from the side of the road. We're not talking about stealing a loaf of bread to feed the family here: We're talking about taking a $100 keg, or a $15 crate to support a hobby. It might seem to some like they're just taking it from "the man", but I suspect they'd see it differently if it were their car's hub cap, or their letter box.

At the end of the day there is no evidence that he stole the home brew so that argument is ridiculous.

If you feel it your civic duty to "Dob" someone in then so be it, but there were two places you could have done that, ebay and the OLGR. You chose the OLGR which just seems a little over the top, he wasn't starting up a brewery and selling barrels of the stuff you know, more than likely trying to off load a heap of bottles that happened to be full and thought it might sweeten the deal.

Andrew

 

[EK]

<Start Rant>

I actually think you live in a fantasy land -

A ) You actually think the OLGR are going to respond to your complaint
B ) You actually think old ladies troll through ebay looking at Home Brew items and then will complain about beer.........
C ) You actually think the OLGR is going to go "Oh, yay the HB community is policing everything for us, yay, they are so good, I mean that one guy would have sold some beer to some guy which really could have caused WWIII - thank Christ for Mark, he saved the world".

I actually cannot believe you really did this and then you even have a go at people who have a donation jar - you are demented. If someone is giving someone a lift and asks for petrol money, do you report them for not having a Taxi License? I also assume that you do not wash your HB equipment with tap water or if you do only on Sundays and Wednesday Nights - otherwise, I'm going to have to report you to the Water Wasters Police - I also hope that you do not download anything that you shouldn't as this give us IT geeks a bad name, thus I will have to report you............ HTFU

You are the one bring a bad name to the community with your Police State....

I think people have some kind of weird perception of the world we live in :blink: strange, really strange

</End Rant>

Regarding B: I have seen people troll through ebay, the trading post even garage sales with nothing better to do than complain about such things...so yeah...it does happen.

I wasn't going to mention the "donation jar" thing, but you are right people asking for petrol money are in the same situation (legally speaking) and I would not look down upon that. However, if I invite people over to my place, it is known that the beer is complimentary. I'm not going to ask my mates to put in 50c (or whatever) for a stubby of HB, to me that's just petty crap. However, my mates would respect the fact that the beer is free and conduct themselves like a proper guest and not abuse it.

EK

 

[kevnlis]

I am also against the tip jar or in any way selling HB, like I said I think trading it for other beer is fine. I also do not own a single milk crate or 50L keg. I paid fairly and own entirely everything in my brewery, I have a few friends and family members with whom I trade beers and we ALL freely give it to anyone that shows interest!

I often have gifts given to me, kits, malt, hops, sachets of dry yeast etc. I am always glad to receive them, but I would be just as happy to give people my beer if I did not!

I think in the end there are a few kinds of brewer. I am the type who is addicted to making beer and doesn't really drink it fast enough to keep up :lol:

eBay does a good job of keeping dodgy things off their website. Perhaps if they were notified of the illegality of the sale of HB they would in the future be able to stop these listings themselves? This would eliminate much concern for everyone!

 

[chovain]

A ) You actually think the OLGR are going to respond to your complaint

Yes. By law, they are obliged to.

B ) You actually think old ladies troll through ebay looking at Home Brew items and then will complain about beer.........

Insert old lady, astute member of local church, parent of child who manages to buy a crate from someone. (Think of the children! ).

C ) You actually think the OLGR is going to go "Oh, yay the HB community is policing everything for us, yay, they are so good, I mean that one guy would have sold some beer to some guy which really could have caused WWIII - thank Christ for Mark, he saved the world".

No, I was just countering the argument that I was raising the profile of the ebay item. OLGR couldn't care less if we police ourselves. OLGR doesn't even know that I'm a homebrewer.

I actually cannot believe you really did this and then you even have a go at people who have a donation jar - you are demented.

If someone is giving someone a lift and asks for petrol money, do you report them for not having a Taxi License? I also assume that you do not wash your HB equipment with tap water or if you do only on Sundays and Wednesday Nights - otherwise, I'm going to have to report you to the Water Wasters Police - I also hope that you do not download anything that you shouldn't as this give us IT geeks a bad name, thus I will have to report you............ HTFU

You are the one bring a bad name to the community with your Police State....

I'm not breaking any water laws when I wash my homebrew gear. I'm not sure that requesting petrol money is illegal (I can't even find the relevant act), but if someone were driving around offering people lifts in return for money, then yeah, I'd happily report them. There's a reason taxi drivers and brewers are licensed. It's not some attempt by "the man" to control us.

The licensing laws are so intertwined in what we do. That we are exempt from them is a privilege, not a right: we have to respect them. It's nothing to do with a police state (at least look it up if you're going to throw the term around). If you're one of these people who think that laws are only put in to control us, and that you should be able to download whatever the hell you like ("information want to be free, man!"), or water your garden 24 hours a day, or sell your beer, then you're the one who's demented.

For the record, I only said people with donation jars should take a good hard look at themselves, not that they (nor their friends) should dob them in. If I personally had a friend with a donation jar on their fridge, I'd just take my own beer along.

I couldn't give a shit about someone downloading a couple of episodes of Lost. But the guy selling episodes of Lost...? That's another story.

 

[Adric Hunter]

I agree that such blatent public selling of HB like what this bloke is doing is wrong and ought to be stoped, but grouping that in in the same category as a bit of low scale selling to your mates seems a bit simpleminded, i think the laws that surrond drinking in gerneral make little sence (eg wineries getting exise releif but brewies not) if someone wants to do some private out of site selling to thier mates to get around those stupid exisse laws, in reality it dosn't harm any one, well realy whats the problem?

 

[tomtoro]

<Start Rant>

I actually think you live in a fantasy land -

A ) You actually think the OLGR are going to respond to your complaint
B ) You actually think old ladies troll through ebay looking at Home Brew items and then will complain about beer.........
C ) You actually think the OLGR is going to go "Oh, yay the HB community is policing everything for us, yay, they are so good, I mean that one guy would have sold some beer to some guy which really could have caused WWIII - thank Christ for Mark, he saved the world".

I actually cannot believe you really did this and then you even have a go at people who have a donation jar - you are demented. If someone is giving someone a lift and asks for petrol money, do you report them for not having a Taxi License? I also assume that you do not wash your HB equipment with tap water or if you do only on Sundays and Wednesday Nights - otherwise, I'm going to have to report you to the Water Wasters Police - I also hope that you do not download anything that you shouldn't as this give us IT geeks a bad name, thus I will have to report you............ HTFU

You are the one bring a bad name to the community with your Police State....

I think people have some kind of weird perception of the world we live in :blink: strange, really strange

</End Rant>

I couldn't agree more. Some poor bloke is trying to get out of the homebrew game for medical reasons but can't see the point in tipping out his last batch of brew before selling the bottles. Trying to line him up for a massive fine and a conviction in my opinion is despicable. Should we then dob in all those who might accept a few bucks off their mates when they come round and drink all their brew watching the footy? What about all the people that each of us know using converted kegs as mush tuns? Larseny carries much stronger sentences than excise evasion.

For heavens sake, if Today Tonight wanted to do a special exposee on some of the bad things that homebrewing contributed to society then they'd have no shortage of things to include. They could even have a go at the risk to the community of taking dip tubes out of fire extinguishers. The thing is they could do a story on almost anything and put a bad spin on it. In fact, that's usually what they do. I'd suggest the main reason they wouldn't do a story about a guy selling his last 6 crates of HB bottles with beer included is because nobody cares. Including the OLGR i'd wager.

As others have already implied, and as i will reiterate here, I don't know a single person who has never pirated off the net, or kept the extra 5 bucks they got in change from a supermarket, or evaded at one time or another whatever tax or stamp duty they new they knew they could get away with evading. I seriously hope Mark C that you have never recorded a TV program and then fast forwarded through the adds, for if so I think your actions might be mistaken for hipocracy.