Yet Another Herms Design Imput Request

[Bizier]

Hey all HERMS experts.

Can I please request some imput on the liquid flow diagram for my system.

I know that some symbols are wrong etc, and that there is no indication of a coil in the HX, please excuse dodgy diag.

Basic system criteria:
Single pump
As small footprint as possible and portable-ish (I rent)
Run from regular 10A mains (again, I rent)
Gas kettle
PID-controlled electric HLT
PID-controlled electric MLT
"Whirlpool" immersion chiller raised and lowered from above
As simple a wort path as possible
As simple to clean as possible
Movable mashtun (a-la Morebeer 'Tippy')

I want it to eventually be hard-plumbed where possible, but some things will obviously need to be detatchable / flexible.
I am unsure on cleaning - there is currently no way to force tap water through the plumbing unless MLT is detatched and aux cleaning hose is attached in place of MLT outlet, but I am happy with that kind of a medium.

Any constructive comments highly appreciated.

I don't have the parts yet, and I will continue brewing with a ghetto system for now, but I figure it is time to start putting the plan in place for a tidy system I can stick with, and collect remaining parts.

 

[Crusty]

Hey all HERMS experts.

Can I please request some imput on the liquid flow diagram for my system.

I know that some symbols are wrong etc, and that there is no indication of a coil in the HX, please excuse dodgy diag.

Basic system criteria:
Single pump
As small footprint as possible and portable-ish (I rent)
Run from regular 10A mains (again, I rent)
Gas kettle
PID-controlled electric HLT
PID-controlled electric MLT
"Whirlpool" immersion chiller raised and lowered from above
As simple a wort path as possible
As simple to clean as possible
Movable mashtun (a-la Morebeer 'Tippy')

I want it to eventually be hard-plumbed where possible, but some things will obviously need to be detatchable / flexible.
I am unsure on cleaning - there is currently no way to force tap water through the plumbing unless MLT is detatched and aux cleaning hose is attached in place of MLT outlet, but I am happy with that kind of a medium.

Any constructive comments highly appreciated.

I don't have the parts yet, and I will continue brewing with a ghetto system for now, but I figure it is time to start putting the plan in place for a tidy system I can stick with, and collect remaining parts.

I will certainly not lay claim to being any type of expert but as a renter myself, I think your idea maybe over complicating a basic Herms design. 10A will not be enough for HLT, Mash tun as well. As you are going to gas fire your boil kettle anyhow, I would gas fire your HLT & maybe use a digital temp controller simply to monitor your temp. 2400watt PID controlled element for a seperate herms vessel & gas fire your kettle. Immersion chiller in your kettle & maybe weld in a whirlpool inlet into your boil kettle as I have done for whirlpooling after chilling down your wort. March pump to move liquids around & either hard plumb or camlock & hoses like I have done.

Cheers

 

[hsb]

Is it better to circulate down through the H/Ex, or from the bottom up? Mine goes bottom up (not hard plumbed though), your looks like it goes top down.

Will your kettle need to go down through the pump like that? Can't work out why?


I'm a newcomer to HERMS - hence all the question??? marks

 

[Bizier]

Attempting to clarify and answer both posts here.

My HX design was top-down because I figured it would be a better exchange of heat, because they are moving in opposite directions (heat rising and pumping through coil).

I plan on the HLT not having to do much work while the HX is running, I could even temporarily kill the HX if I need to heavily ramp the HLT. The plan is for the HLT, MLT and HX to be well insulated to minimise unnecessary loss of heat which would add to the load. I have not looked into element specs yet because I have a temporary HX to use in conjunction with my kettle heating strike and sparge water.

The idea is to whirlpool 'Jamil style' while immersion chilling to increase exchange of heat. That was a factor in the valve layout. That is also what I am slightly unsure of the ramifications of, seeing as it is more complicated, but also utilising as many common lines as I could think to do.

And a new question:
Are 3-way valves that can be disassembled reasonably common, or do they cost the earth?

 

[jimmyjack]

Batch Sparge or Fly. If Batch sparging I recommend the following.

It looks like your HLT gravity feeds to your MLT to the top similar to my current set up. My suggestion is put a T on the exit of your MLT and drain from your HLT hose down to T with ball valve on MLT draining through to your existing recirc loop . This system will allow you to you flush any wort sitting in your MLT Recirc hose during your sparge which will minimise wastage and clean your recirc loop without too much effort. For the record I am currently in the process of setting mine up like this and havent tried it yet. I have also stated to put SS quick disconnects in mine which make cleaning and taking hoses off a breeze. Doesnt seem much but the other way was very tedious.

Also try and have a good run from your MLT drain to your pump, It might just be the picture but the pump and MLT look pretty close together. In my expereince the March pump needs to have a good drain to it otherwise it will give you all sorts of problems. Best to have the inlet facing down to flush air bubbles out to stop cavitation and its easier to prime.

Sorry my explanation may not make since if you need a pic I will send you one will I get mine sorted

 

[Bizier]

That is exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for there jimmyjack.

The diagram is meant to basically illustrate relationships, but realistically, I'll use shortest distances possible, except where I require gravity assistance.

And at the moment, batch sparge, but might play with fly down the track.

 

[cdbrown]

Instead of 3-way valves have you considered using T-pieces and then 2 valves? The HX, controlling PID and pump will run on a 10A circuit fine if using the standard 2.4kw element scavanged from a kettle. Once temp is reached in the system it only turns the system on and off intermittently. Only during ramping (stepped mash, mash out) and when trying to get up to temp does the PID keep the element on. Thankfully the pump doesn't draw much from the system.

As for the HLT power - well that will depend on the size of the system - if just doing 20L batches then you may get away with 2.4kw element but it's probably going to take some time getting the temps up for strike and sparge.

Insulation of the vessels are important, but don't forget to insulate the piping as well.

 

[kevin_smevin]

Attempting to clarify and answer both posts here.

My HX design was top-down because I figured it would be a better exchange of heat, because they are moving in opposite directions (heat rising and pumping through coil).

I plan on the HLT not having to do much work while the HX is running, I could even temporarily kill the HX if I need to heavily ramp the HLT. The plan is for the HLT, MLT and HX to be well insulated to minimise unnecessary loss of heat which would add to the load. I have not looked into element specs yet because I have a temporary HX to use in conjunction with my kettle heating strike and sparge water.

The idea is to whirlpool 'Jamil style' while immersion chilling to increase exchange of heat. That was a factor in the valve layout. That is also what I am slightly unsure of the ramifications of, seeing as it is more complicated, but also utilising as many common lines as I could think to do.

And a new question:
Are 3-way valves that can be disassembled reasonably common, or do they cost the earth?

You can get 3-way ball valves here http://www.geordi.com.au/Products39d.htm. I haven't seen them so dont know if they can be pulled apart. I would just use a t-piece and 2 x 3piece ball valves.

 

[Bizier]

OK, I have switched from half-arsed flow diagram novice back to my old designer brain, where I figured I could visualise valve switching better.

Diagram is roughly to scale for my height and vessel size, though spacing is just for clarity.

I think that this a good configuration barring the march pump orientation.

I have a centre inlet 815, and I am weighing up the orientation options. I am thinking the best is straight up as per manual with a T piece allowing a side outlet for fermenter, and straight up into rest of output plumbing. The downside is no direct drainage capability, but it expels air. I figure this should not be a problem if I run a good cleaning cycle and rinse, even with a mild acid/sanitiser rinse to finish. Is there clearly a better way to do this? Pump vertical with inlet facing up? Use disconnects and remove the pump to drain when done?

I will use silicone temporarily to get used to it regardless.

I apologise if there is an obvious choice, but it seems like people use different pump oriantations.

 

[mxd]

you have a connection from MLT to kettle, is that meant to go to pump so you can suck from the bottom of the mlt to the top of the mlt through the hx ?

I looked at the top pic so I can see the valves.

 

[Bizier]

One valve open at a time there depending whether you want to pull from mlt or bk, they do go to the pump.

 

[Bizier]

And I just realised that I'm missing a valve if I want to fly sparge and not such hlt contents into kettle.