Yeast Starter.... Not Starting?

[carniebrew]

I'm a bit lost, why all the conjecture, when he took a gravity reading post boil? Shouldn't he just take a gravity reading now to see if his yeast starter is working/complete?

Personally I don't need to, I use a 3l juice bottle with anything up to a 2l starter, with the lid only half screwed on. Give it a swirl every time I go past the bottle, and a large foamy head forms while the yeast are still actively fermenting. After about 24 hours that head stops forming and I know things are pretty much done, in the fridge she goes for a day or two, decant the wort and pitch the slurry.

But if I wasn't seeing that foam, after a day I'd take a gravity reading....just let your yeast settle out first so you're reading mostly wort, which you'll be decanting anyway.

 

[Black n Tan]

The last thing you want is a "exchange" of gases.

Guess John Palmer, Chris White, Jamil etc etc got it wrong! :blink: I want my money back, that bloody Yeast book is already out of date regarding best practice. BTW I haven't had an infection in more than 50 batches using loose foil and allowing free exchange of CO2 and O2.

 

[Black n Tan]

I made my first yeast starter last night and can't see much action this morning, so I think I may have a problem - figured I'd avoid starting a new thread and just add to this one.

You can see the 'progress' after 8 hours in the attachments below.

Details of starter:

2L water (boiled to 1.5L)
200g DME
~1/16tsp Wyeast nutrient
1 pack of Wyeast liquid yeast (2124)

SG: I didn't expect to lose so much water in the boil, so now the SG is 1.048 (instead of target 1.040).
Pitch temp: Slightly high.. may have been 26°C
Working temp: 21°C temp controlled in fridge.
Flask being constantly stirred @ 800RPM
Yeast manufacture date: 3/12/13 (viability ~26%)

I was expecting some bubbles/frothy stuff - is this reasonable to expect with a stirred starter? If so..
Could the elevated SG and nutrient be too much for the low amount of yeast?
Is the volume too large for that population of yeast?
Is it just moving slowly? Not at all?
Should I buy another pack of yeast to pitch?

Thanks to anyone who can help.

Just curious Beer me up whether you added the DME to the water before you boiled?? This has no bearing on the activity or lack there of that you may be experiencing, but I would add 200g DME to Erlenmeyer then add water up to 2L, then boil very gently for 15 minutes. You need to keep an eye on it to make sure it won't boil over, but your 500mL boil off sounds to me like you boiled the water vigorously before adding the DME. I would also add a bit more yeast nutrient because you are making a lager and want good healthy growth. Cant remember what the wyeast instructions recommend but 1/2 tsp seems like a reasonable amount to me.

 

[Scooby Tha Newbie]

Guess John Palmer, Chris White, Jamil etc etc got it wrong! :blink: I want my money back, that bloody Yeast book is already out of date regarding best practice. BTW I haven't had an infection in more than 50 batches using loose foil and allowing free exchange of CO2 and O2.

Lol like to see you put foil on your fermenter as well. Same idea smaller vessel.
Just for the record I put glad rap on my fermenter.

 

[Black n Tan]

I make yeast with my starter and beer with my fermenter, so there not the same thing. I am sure you make good beer in your starter just may be not as many healthy yeast as you could. I understand you don't want to be convinced but with any luck others won't follow your lead.

 

[beermeupscotty]

Cloudier is good and is suggestive of growth. Let it go a bit longer and I am sure it will be fine. Good to see you bought a stir plate. My experience is a little different to some in relationship to bubbles being more visible when the stir plate is turned off. I find the opposite i.e. I can see the bubbles better when the stir plate is going because the bubbles are forced to the outside against the glass by the stirring. When I turn off the stir plate I can't see the bubbles.

Yeah, I reckon I'll just let it go for a full 36-48 hours, chill it to settle the yeast out and take a reading. I could indeed see bubbles when it was stirring - assuming they weren't bubbles formed from air sucked in and dispersed at the (slight) vortex.

A starter is all about yeast growth and oxygen promotes growth, so I prefer to keep it simple and just place foil loosely on top (and this is what is recommended in most books). Loose foil keeps the bad bugs out, so an airtight seal is really unnecessary and will likely inhibit yeast growth. It also allows CO2 to escape and CO2 is inhibitory to growth.

EDIT: add comment about CO2

Makes sense to me.

If I read this correctly you have added a (Smacked & swollen) pack of 2124 to 2000ml of wort at 1.048 + have added a little more nutrient?

As mentioned above, I wouldn't stress too much just yet but wait a little longer & if all goes well you should see condensation forming on the inside of the Erlenmeyer. This is a sure sign of activity & is good news.

Perhaps next time consider either adding extra water to allow for boil-off & remember that 1.040 is the maximum (Ideal) starter gravity & you can well make a good starter with wort down to 1.030.
There's no worries upping the temp to 24 deg c to get your starter rolling on either.

Have you ever considered splitting your yeast packs into e.g.. 4 x? This is a good way to save dollars if you're keen?

Must admit that I agree with Black n Tan's post above re no rubber bands.
Just saying.

Thanks, they're good points. Yes, I've got condensation forming (see attached pic/s)

Yes I was planning to add more water to the boil next time, and also do less boiling overall. I basically went for the 10:1 ratio, rather than properly calculating the estimated SG, which would have given me about 1.036.

Haven't seriously considering splitting the packs yet but I definitely want to do something like that (possibly farm) in future to save $$.

Just curious Beer me up whether you added the DME to the water before you boiled?? This has no bearing on the activity or lack there of that you may be experiencing, but I would add 200g DME to Erlenmeyer then add water up to 2L, then boil very gently for 15 minutes. You need to keep an eye on it to make sure it won't boil over, but your 500mL boil off sounds to me like you boiled the water vigorously before adding the DME. I would also add a bit more yeast nutrient because you are making a lager and want good healthy growth. Cant remember what the wyeast instructions recommend but 1/2 tsp seems like a reasonable amount to me.

I listened to a Brewstrong podcast on starters and, from the notes I took, I think they suggested boiling the water, then adding the dry ingredients, then reboiling - which is what I did - and yes there was a vigorous boil prior to adding the dry ingredients. This is the main reason I lost so much water. I don't really see the point of this so next time I'll reduce boiling time and overall separation of steps.

I boiled in a 7.6L stock pot btw, not in the Erlenmeyer. I know the flasks are made to manage high heat and fast change in temperature but I still want to play it safe and preserve them as much as I can (the only/main risk involved being infection with using two vessels). The flasks appear to be 'no-name' brands from Keg King, so I don't want to push them too hard.

Finally, yes I intend to add the full 1/2tsp by the time I pitch into the final wort. The reason I only added 1/16tsp at this point is because I didn't want to add a toxic dose to such a small population of yeast (probably around 30-50B). Based on the ratio of 1/2tsp:400B yeast cells, I went for 1/16tsp for ~50B yeast cells for this first starter. For my next step of starter (4L) I was planning to add 1/4tsp, with a final 1/4tsp added to the fermenter itself. Not sure if it's necessary to break up the addition of nutrient like that but figured I'd be conservative.

 

[carniebrew]

And just to add to the apparent controversy, I only boil my starter wort for 60 seconds or so. There was a good article linked off the old yeastcalc.com that talked about pathogens being mostly boiled off as the temp reaches 80, 90 etc, and by the time it reaches boiling point it's pretty much as sterile as it can be.

No harm done boiling longer, and but I don't bother, and that way I only need to add as much water to my pot as I need in my starter.

 

[Scooby Tha Newbie]

I make yeast with my starter and beer with my fermenter, so there not the same thing. I am sure you make good beer in your starter just may be not as many healthy yeast as you could. I understand you don't want to be convinced but with any luck others won't follow your lead.

Not so much a matter of "not wanting to be convinced",just that what I'm doing works well.
Primarily we are talking about two different processes.
1. making a healthy starter.
2. Farming yeast to a point of having enough to split in many starters.
I only had two points
Gladrap works for starters and fermenter. Yes they are different ,but they can be treated the same.
A starter is a mini beer just on a stirplate.
What I've written so far has just been regurgitated from past threads here.
I do how ever think it's funny when someone feels they have a monopoly on being correct.
I'm happy with what I'm doing and happy to show others a easy way to make strong starters and save a few bucks making extra yeast for future use.
One great thing about this hobby is the varied ways to make beer.
I hope the op looks up some of the info on this site provided by "Wolfy"&"Tony".

 

[beermeupscotty]

Okay, so I was about to start chilling/settling the starter but finally after 41 hours, I'm seeing (what look to me like) some serious activity! (see attached images)

Some time between 32-41h this krausen has formed.

Am I right in thinking this is suggestive of the primary/attenuative phase?
Is it time to start chilling/settling once the krausen actually begins to subside (secondary/conditioning phase)?
Or, does evidence of the primary/attenuative phase (the krausen) mean that the adaptation (high growth) phase is complete, and I should start chilling/settling now?

Thanks guys.

 

[Black n Tan]

I would let it go until tomorrow morning to make sure it has built up some glycogen reserves before you chill. Usually by 48 hours I find it is ready to chill, but your seems a like it was a little slow to get started, so another 1/2 day won't hurt.

 

[beermeupscotty]

Ok sounds good. I'm guessing the yeast were somewhat 'overwhelmed' by the volume and concentration of the wort and took a little extra time to build strength (numbers) before they could really starting having a good go at the sugar. What do you reckon?

 

[Black n Tan]

Yes that may be right. Where are located beer me up?

 

[beermeupscotty]

I'm in Kensington, VIC

 

[Scooby Tha Newbie]

Ferment your starter out then use it or step up.

Very simple.

 

[Black n Tan]

I'm in Kensington, VIC

I am brewing tomorrow if your interested. I am in Ascot Vale. PM if interested.

 

[Scooby Tha Newbie]

Brewing won't help you fermenting the starter is the topic.

 

[Scooby Tha Newbie]

Plus if your using foil then chilling.your as good as fu(k@d the gases Will reabsorb then introduce microbial ingress.
PS. My wife is Pathologist by trade.
And I'm a baker with 20 years experience.
You could say yeast is my lively hood.

Have fun with the brew up.
Any problems pm me.
JODY.

 

[MaltyHops]

I would let it go until tomorrow morning to make sure it has built up some glycogen reserves before you chill. Usually by 48 hours I find it is ready to chill, but your seems a like it was a little slow to get started, so another 1/2 day won't hurt.

Mate last thing you want to do is listen to this clown. Reading from a book is fine but experience talks"glycogen" is book talk. Ferment your starter out then use it or step up.

Yeah, them scientists and book writers don't know anything.

 

[manticle]

Scooby - disagreement on practices is fine but Black n Tan has offered advice and backed it up. Plenty of people use foil on erlenmeyers. Done it myself. Bacteria can't crawl, fly or walk.

Anyway please rein in your personal criticisms - words like clown in this context are unnecessary. Discuss the finer points by all means but with some respect.

This thread doesn't need to get out of hand and I'd rather not hide, delete or otherwise moderate - I prefer leaving it up to members to behave responsibly towards each other.

 

[Scooby Tha Newbie]

Point taken.
Black and tan,I was being a D!ck. Long brew day and to much beer. No excuses sorry mate.