Yeast Of The Week- 29/09/10 - Wyeast 1469-pc

[Scruffy]

Me and the yorkshire ripper (haven't got to 'in hindsight' with that phrase) should get our own blog!
I've cleaned the cage out again this morning (it's spat out about 1.5 litres so far!), 1.059...1.030 in 2 days...!
Wasn't overconscious with the airating nor building a bionic starter (bionic as in $6m dollar man...), more of a gentle nudge... the yeast just kind of got on with it.
Hydro sample taste @ 19C, subdued malts, subdued bitterness, nothing defining, just yeasty - there's alcohol in it - but that nice gentle afterglow... probably needs dry hop - but no way ready yet!
More to follow...

 

[argon]

Both of my batches are happily sitting side by side at 17.5C.

The slant batch has still hot a 2-3 inch krausen... alot of white bubbly head to it. The gladwrap is slight bulging.

The fresh pack version, being a day younger, has a 2 inch krausen and is pushing up soem hop particles from the cube hopping so looks a little greenish brown. This should subside today and be replaced with white/brown yeasty krausen. The gladwrap is also slight bulging.

One more thing left to say... :icon_drool2:

 

[Dazza_devil]

I gave my fermenter a gentle rock last night and most of the krausen dropped. I was pleasantly surprised to find just under an inch of krausen had reformed this morning. I'll take a hydro sample tonight and assess the situation but it's lookin good.

 

[Shed101]

I gave my fermenter a gentle rock last night and most of the krausen dropped. I was pleasantly surprised to find just under an inch of krausen had reformed this morning. I'll take a hydro sample tonight and assess the situation but it's lookin good.

Mate, i've got washed topcrop in the fridge that's nearly three weeks old and it's still developing froth on top!

 

[Dazza_devil]

Mate, i've got washed topcrop in the fridge that's nearly three weeks old and it's still developing froth on top!

I wont hold my breath waitin' for the krausen to drop then, still a good 2cm sittin on the brew. A hydrometer reading taken last night gave me just under 1.012 which I'm fairly confident will be FG and 72% attenuation which isn't too bad for my first partial mash. I'm undecided on racking this one to a secondary and CC'ng it for longer than I usually would. This brew may benefit from being off the kettle trub for a while and clearing up a bit before bottling.

 

[RdeVjun]

Yeah Boagsy, 1469 krausen persists, don't let it bother you, its just what it does.

I'm getting lazy so only occasionally can I be bothered with clearing (if it convenient I will CC one along with the lagers), however what I have found easy but also quite effective of late is a tablespoon dry PVPP (eg. Polyclar) nearing the end of primary, but that's mostly in lagers as I never secondary a 1469. Other than that, I've been meaning to agar one instead of gelatine prior to bottling, but its ages since I've even done that. In the mean time, I've noted a bit of chill haze and some suspended sediments, but not enough to spur me into action. The pair of UK Bitters I entered in QABC didn't note any clarity issues, so it can't be that bad!

With the FG, even though 1469 can rush it through, I seldom even look at it within a fortnight of pitching, yours would be getting close to that now I guess.

Kettle trub though? :blink: I'm hoping you actually mean fermenter trub? Please tell me the hops debris and majority of the hot break stayed in the kettle? If not, I'd advise to doing that in future, the stuff may not wreck a beer completely (home brewers do seem more tolerant of faults!) but can make life pretty unpleasant. I hope ordinary fermenter trub what you meant...

 

[Dazza_devil]

Kettle trub though? :blink: I'm hoping you actually mean fermenter trub? Please tell me the hops debris and majority of the hot break stayed in the kettle? If not, I'd advise to doing that in future, the stuff may not wreck a beer completely (home brewers do seem more tolerant of faults!) but can make life pretty unpleasant. I hope ordinary fermenter trub what you meant...

I'm not sure how much kettle trub made it into my fermenter. I whirlpooled, let settle out while cooling then siphoned, leaving 3 litres of trub in the kettle, so probably not much. It's the first time I've had to deal with hot and cold break or trub from a mash so I'm not sure what to expect. My latest hydro sample had some off aromas which may have been a product of fermenter/yeast trub but not an over familiar smell nor one that was present in my earlier sample. The sample cleared through the night and now smells of delicious beer. I'm guessing that whatever was in suspension was the culprit hence the inclination to rack but I suppose it will settle out with time in the primary and a CC.

 

[RdeVjun]

Ahh, sounds fine to me Boagsy, phew! :super: The tap is at the bottom, more likely to pick up a bit of yeasty debris (i.e. fermenter trub) in your hydro sample, even if you flush a couple of samples- worth through. The so- called 'sediment reducer' is useless too. Now, everyone just relax! :icon_cheers:

 

[Dazza_devil]

Ahh, sounds fine to me Boagsy, phew! :super: The tap is at the bottom, more likely to pick up a bit of yeasty debris (i.e. fermenter trub) in your hydro sample, even if you flush a couple of samples- worth through. The so- called 'sediment reducer' is useless too. Now, everyone just relax! :icon_cheers:

Sounds optimistically probabilically what I was thinkin.
I only ever used that 'sediment reducer' once, for that anyway. It does come in handy for bulk priming though.
I initially suspected DMS, I had my pot lid 2/3rds the way over the top of my kettle to keep a better boil happening. I suspect if it was DMS I would still be able to smell it in the latest hydro sample and in the previous sample plus the aroma was more yeasty than vegetal. Somethin like a good yeast fart but less potent.
I'll be investing in a burner before my next brew anyway.

 

[beerbrewer76543]

Would 1469 be suitable in an Irish Red Ale? Could it replace 1084?

I'm trying to narrow down a list of must have yeast strains

So far I'm at:

1007 German Ale (never used it)
1084 Irish Ale (never used it)
1469 West Yorkshire
1762 Belgian Abbey (never used it)
2565 Kolsch
3068 Hefeweizen

Cheers

 

[Dazza_devil]

Would 1469 be suitable in an Irish Red Ale? Could it replace 1084?

Wouldn't that make it an English Brown?

 

[Bribie G]

I just made an Irish red with 1469 but I've called it a Yorkshire Red :icon_cheers: I reckon it would be perfect for the particular malt bill that has 400g Caraaroma for starters.

 

[tazman1967]

Ok,
Love this Yeast, How do I keep this yeast going..
I want it for a house yeast, dont want to fart around with it.
Just want a method thats short and no fuss ?

 

[RdeVjun]

Taz, with these seasonal or hard to get strains, a means to capure it for future use is necessary but it isnt' so simple. Commons methods are slants or vials. Actually beer itself is also a useful storage medium, i.e. reculturing from dregs after some storage, but I prefer to get a hold of seed stock closer to the source.
Know what you mean about a house strain, this stuff I have as my house strain and until lately I've used it about 3/4 of the time. I generally use it for 8 or more top cropped batches, if I happen to miss the early- mid ferment krausen then I'll just grab some yeast cake later, I don't bottle top cropped krausen for storage but some folks also do that. Top cropping is a speedy and efficient inoculation method, after the first initial batch with a new strain* there's no need to fart around with subsequent starters and with these daughter batches growth is extremely rapid, usually a generous top crop is well underway within a day. If I think it is no longer the same strain that I originally started with (i.e. its characteristics have drifted) or is infected which is very, very rare, I'll restart from a fresh slant. I have used slants well over a year old, no problems at all, but I do also re- slant when they reach that age just in case.
* Nb. Not all strains can be top cropped. 1469 is definitely a top cropper.

Edit: Clarity.

 

[vykuza]

I'm performing a bit of thread necromancy here, but I've noticed some behaviour from 1469 that has me a tad puzzled.


I've been brewing a few beers with this recently, 2 milds, an ESB and a stout. All bar the stout (which is still in the fermenter) show the same flavour behaviour from this yeast strain.

I ferment, rest and chill it down to drop the yeast for a week, then keg and carb at serving temperatures for at least a week. So by the time I pour the first pint, it's been "conditioning" for two weeks at low temps, and carbing during that time. These first beers taste good, as expected from the grist and hop choices. From that point, the beer tastes worse and worse for the next week, peaking at a stage where I think it tastes rubbish. Harsh, unsubtle, not chemically, but almost a cleaning product or dish soap flavour? It's hard to describe, but if I had to describe it in one word, it would be "unrefined" or "harsh". I had a look through the off-flavour flashcards, but nothing struck me as being the cause.

From that point, it improves again over a couple of weeks to a good end product.

Normally, I'd put this down to hop ageing, especially with dry or late hopped beers, but with the milds, there are no late hops at all. They taste good for a while, then crap for a few weeks, then good again. I've only noticed this with these beers, even the ESB which is late (but not dry) hopped. I didn't notice similar behaviour with similar recipes using Wyeast 1335 Britsh Ale II.

Anyone else seen similar with this strain, or others, that can't be attributed to hop flavour changes? Is it the hop flavour changes, even with single addition 60 and 90 minute additions of around 20 IBUs? If it's just green beer maturing, why does it taste good to begin with, then get worse before it hits its stride?

 

[Wolfy]

Anyone else seen similar with this strain, or others, that can't be attributed to hop flavour changes? Is it the hop flavour changes, even with single addition 60 and 90 minute additions of around 20 IBUs? If it's just green beer maturing, why does it taste good to begin with, then get worse before it hits its stride?

Unless you have your keg-fridge set quite warm it's highly unlikely that the yeast (at normal fridge temperatures) will be active enough to have any impact on flavors changing over time - especially if they get worse and then improve as you have suggested. Assuming the kegs are kept at the same lowish temperature (and not taken out of the fridge and warmed up), the yeast will simply not be active enough to make any noticeable difference.

 

[Phoney]

I found a pack of this at the back of my fridge recently, dated December 2010. I smacked it on Sunday night, it's now Thursday and it still hasn't swelled up. Should I chuck it?

 

[Wolfy]

I found a pack of this at the back of my fridge recently, dated December 2010. I smacked it on Sunday night, it's now Thursday and it still hasn't swelled up. Should I chuck it?

Give it a few more days, then if you really want to use the yeast, have the equipment and can be bothered, streak some onto an agar slant or plate; any live cells (and there might be a very small number, hence the pack has not swelled yet) will be easily identified and you can grow them up.

 

[vykuza]

Unless you have your keg-fridge set quite warm it's highly unlikely that the yeast (at normal fridge temperatures) will be active enough to have any impact on flavors changing over time - especially if they get worse and then improve as you have suggested. Assuming the kegs are kept at the same lowish temperature (and not taken out of the fridge and warmed up), the yeast will simply not be active enough to make any noticeable difference.

Thanks Wolfy, when it gets in to the keg, it's been cold "crashed" but not filtered, and first pours have small amounts of yeast. I'm going to guess that this flavour swing is probably from suspended yeast in early pours.

What I'm getting at is could the flavour changes be from yeast in suspension (that tastes good) to yeast dropping out (and tasting bad, or even green) and back to good again as it ages?

If there's little hop influence in the beer, what, exactly is ageing the beer, or making it less green? What drives the improvement in flavour?

Do filtered beers, for a comparable example a filtered cream ale (similarly lowish abv and low hop levels, but still an ale), improve once they've been kegged as well? If so, where's that improvement coming from?


I've got more reading to do....

 

[technobabble66]

Necro time.

Just thought i'd report on this amazing yeast strain.

I've recently done a Red Ale & an Old Ale using a batch of 1469; the Red being a "starter" for the Old ale (@ ~6% from memory). Both of these had the krausen blow out of the FV twice. Both were kept ~14-15°C.
Both smelled amazing coming out of the FV and during bottling. Both have a nice reserved fruitiness to them that combines well with the caramel & malty elements.
Sort of cherry & stone fruit, maybe, blended with caramel elements (did boiled reductions on both to highlight the caramel elements).

I'll have to let the Old Ale mature a little to report accurately on that, and maybe see how the next batch (below) goes.

Currently have the same batch of 1469 going on a Better Red Than Dead clone. Threw it in 2 nights ago straight onto the yeast cake of the Old Ale, its got a nice krausen going and it's chewed ~6 points off already. It's been sitting at 12°C the whole time!! Raised it to 13°C today.

I'm now a little scared to raise the temp any more in case it attacks me when i go to check it next time.