Wyeast Problems

[Murcluf]

Usually smack atleast 24 to 48 hours before pitching had no issues so far, mind you smacked a pack that 7 or 8 months old last week which was an absolute fail... something very very wrong with it

 

[Stuster]

Eater, even with your temps you should get better growth at room temp than at fridge temps. If you are decanting and pitching mostly slurry then keeping it out should be ok. If you are pitching the lot then I think you are probably right to keep it in the fridge or you risk having noticeable levels of esters/phenols/fusels added to your beer. If you are growing the yeast at a different temp to your fermentation temp, you would want to equalise the temps of the wort and the starter before you pitch the yeast. Do you do this with ales/lagers/both?

 

[BoilerBoy]

Just as a side note to this

You mention smacking the pack and leaving at room temp, would it not be better to have at the same temp as fermentation, thus promoting the best yeast growth (for me this is achieved by leaving the smack pack in the same temp controlled fridge as primary fermentation is about to take place in) or am i just being a bit tooooooo picky and anal about yeast temps?
(FYI i am in Darwin, average "room temp" at the Barking Log Brewery location was 27 degress on the day)

Your point is valid in terms of extreme room temperatures, but really smacking the packet is not for yeast growth its really to test the viability of the yeast and ready it for pitching.

If you always make a starter days ahead of brewing all the finger crossing ,hope amd Russian roulete is removed.

Wyeast activator packs are prepared for standard batch sizes but yeast health is affected by age and transport conditions so there is never any real guarantee of optimum yeast numbers particularly in older packs.

Quite simply always pitch an active starter then there is no issue.

Cheers,
BB

 

[T.D.]

NEVER pitch a Wyeast smack pack before it has swollen.
The whole idea behind the smack pack is that you have you your yeast in a sterile enviroment & you can check its viabillity before pitching, whether into a starter or direct into the wort. If it has not swollen, there is nothing happening, so there is no point in pitching & leaving yourself further in the dark. Leave your self plenty of time to get the pack ready, if it fires straight away, simply put back in the fridge until you are ready. If the pack doesn't swell & it's "in date", return to your supplier for a replacement.

Cheers Ross

I follow the instructions correctly - warm the yeast to room temperature and burst the nutrients pack for a few hours before pitching. The bag swells and then I pitch when the wort temp is around 23 degrees.

 

[haysie]

The yeast dribbles etc realy get a hard time, everybody has their own method afterall its not cheap paying all that stinking postage for 1 wyeast pack.
My experience is..., yeast is hardy, too much fuss about stress n counts was a waste for me of resources. Sure sanitation is a must as well as ferment temps but the yeast itself I think, looks after itself. So much text book stuff confuses people.
I was a believer you didnt pitch old packs because of viability, thats a load of ****, i have pitched a 13 month old 1275 to a FES, no starter and lag time of 60 hours, attentuation was 73% and a cracker of a beer, not a once of, i have scoured the out of date bins at G &G HMMM..... every time I go there, . I was a believer you dont pitch warm yeast to cold wort, thats a load of ****, but thats a lager yeast and another story.
Underpitching,overpitching are great valid yeast debates thou <_<

Yeast is very hardy IMO.
If you gotta pitch without smacking? doesnt matter one iota.

edit, I`ll drag it out and post it later, recently BYO had an article re. underpitching and the results were very interesting.

 

[Eater]

Eater, even with your temps you should get better growth at room temp than at fridge temps. If you are decanting and pitching mostly slurry then keeping it out should be ok. If you are pitching the lot then I think you are probably right to keep it in the fridge or you risk having noticeable levels of esters/phenols/fusels added to your beer. If you are growing the yeast at a different temp to your fermentation temp, you would want to equalise the temps of the wort and the starter before you pitch the yeast. Do you do this with ales/lagers/both?

Current fermenter of rocheford clone is in atm. That was done with two liquid packs of Wyest #1762. Packs were smacked a tad late at 3 hours before pitch, but in the past have never had failed fermentation to date (taps nearest wood object to ground out the negatives). Normally such liquid packs in use here are then pitched into aerated wort, aeration of 5 mins with airstone and hefty auqariam pump. In the past i have usually smacked and left at room tempt to swell, which they have always done in 15 plus brews that use them, at the start of brew day which normally lasts about 5 hours with all cleaning duties finished. On doing so this time (R8 Clone) the brewmaster Fleshy did take me aside and slap me about the face and head screaming "NOOOOOO!" and things about death and off flavours. In general my thinking is we are normally pitching at +20 degress on most occasions (three bags of ice in an esky with pond pump through a Chillout isnt enough) so the yeast should be ready to take on such warmer temps and be ready to start multiplying (thanks BoilerBoy, i thought it happened in the bag with the nutrients). He explained to me that the yeast needs to be kept at primaray fermentation temp (20-21 in this case) at all times after the nutrient is released to promote maximum growth (BB i hope your info is right, im going toe to toe with a big man on this) and have sufficient cells to take on the enourmous amount of fermentables in not only the pitching but also the candi additions after.
Sounded good to me at the time

Normally if its liquid yeast, we do it everytime regardless of beer style.

The yeast dribbles etc realy get a hard time, everybody has their own method afterall its not cheap paying all that stinking postage for 1 wyeast pack.
My experience is..., yeast is hardy, too much fuss about stress n counts was a waste for me of resources. Sure sanitation is a must as well as ferment temps but the yeast itself I think, looks after itself. So much text book stuff confuses people.
I was a believer you didnt pitch old packs because of viability, thats a load of ****, i have pitched a 13 month old 1275 to a FES, no starter and lag time of 60 hours, attentuation was 73% and a cracker of a beer, not a once of, i have scoured the out of date bins at G &G HMMM..... every time I go there, . I was a believer you dont pitch warm yeast to cold wort, thats a load of ****, but thats a lager yeast and another story.
Underpitching,overpitching are great valid yeast debates thou <_<

Yeast is very hardy IMO.
If you gotta pitch without smacking? doesnt matter one iota.

edit, I`ll drag it out and post it later, recently BYO had an article re. underpitching and the results were very interesting.

haysie, nailed it in one. Damn yeast cells can survive hard vacum!

(spelling is not my forte, mistakes will cna and do happen)

 

[Sammus]

Yeah I'm with BB on the growth issue. Firstly, optimum yeast growth occurs in the mid 20s (can't find a ref for this, I've read it in a heap of places though...take with a grain of salt). Second, the nutrient pack in WY has nothing to do with cell growth, it is there only so you know if it's active or not (ref).

 

[Screwtop]

My hyrdometer broke a couple of weeks back, and haven't gotten around to replacing it so no gravity reading. The wort is very sweet to the taste, so I know there's plenty of sugars in there. i did pitch 1 pack, and it did swell nicely. Just no action once it went into the well aerated wort, which is at a stable 22 degrees and sealed tight in the fermentor. Is it possible contamination could inhibit the yeast?? How long should I wait until I pitch more yeast?

Ok, so by the taste of it you think it's below 1.060 :lol: Then one pack of yeast was enough, it swelled and you pitched it as per the instructions. It most likely is fermenting, you will need some very basic brewing kit to be able to determine this............a new hydro !! If your temp is suitable and stable it will continue.

Some recipe specifics would assist us in determining an OG guestimate as your starting point.

Screwy

 

[Ross]

Yeah I'm with BB on the growth issue. Firstly, optimum yeast growth occurs in the mid 20s (can't find a ref for this, I've read it in a heap of places though...take with a grain of salt). Second, the nutrient pack in WY has nothing to do with cell growth, it is there only so you know if it's active or not (ref).

Exactly - Which is why a Wyeast pack should not be pitched unless it swells. There is nothing to be gained by pitching before there is some activity - if it doesn't swell the yeast is cactus. The time it takes to swell should give you an indication of the viability, but like Haysie I've severely under pitched in the past with no apparent detriment to the beer. The most extreme example was pitching 1/5th of a smack pack (stored under boiled water in test tubes) into 2 different (unoxygenated) lagers before heading off to the UK for a month - On my return 1 month later (Saturday) neither beer had started, so I went to the brew shop 2 days later to get some dried yeast, but as I went to pitch I saw the 1st signs of a krausen so left the beers alone - they both brewed out to be excellent beers with full expected attenuation. Not recommending under pitching, but I certainbly don't stress about it.

Cheers Ross

 

[hoohaaman]

Ross,do you mean the the lag time was approximately a month No other infection?

 

[Ross]

Yep, zero visable/measureable activity for 30 days - not that I'd recommend it B)

cheers Ross

 

[mmmyummybeer]

I believe Ross is spot on leave it in the pack untill it swells. The main problem with lag time is it leaves the wort open to infection but whilst in the smack pack its safe. As far as using old yeast I believe there is two train of thoughts.

Jamil an John mentioned on a show that the problem with old yeast is it can mutate over time, which can make the final results less predictable. This may be a problem if your trying to hone in on a particular style for competitions, cloneing etc.

Pesonally I'd rather make a starter, and if it taste fine I'll use it. I have even used a 1056 which was about 2 years old, took a couple of days to get going then worked fine.

Apparently Charlie Papazian has been using the same yeast he has been reculturing not sure on actual time but something like 20 years. He got the sample from a local brew pub which is now no longer and has been using it ever since and loves it, even said it gives him lager flavours at low temps and ale flavours at higher?

Therefore I have recently decided to ditch the rules of culturing no more than 5 times and instead go for the keep it and reuse it as long as it taste good, though for this approach I think I will need to look at yeast washing to help keep nasty bacteria at bay. I have heard you can use starsan, as phosphoric acid is good for yeast washing but not sure yet on stregth or method? some one else may have more idea on that?

Anyway thats my thoughts hope it may be of some help or interest.

Cheers

 

[zabond]

my first[and only]fray into a smackpack was a wyeast1335,smacked it whacked it waited 8 hrs,thought it had swollen[instructions wernt real clear as to know if the inner pack has broken or how much it "swells"ie:blows up like a baloon or just pillows] opened the pack poured it into the brew only to find the inner pack also went in UNOPENED fished it out, opened and poured it in,brew came out fine,maybe I was lucky but sticking to cheaper dried yeast for now

 

[alowen474]

my first[and only]fray into a smackpack was a wyeast1335,smacked it whacked it waited 8 hrs,thought it had swollen[instructions wernt real clear as to know if the inner pack has broken or how much it "swells"ie:blows up like a baloon or just pillows] opened the pack poured it into the brew only to find the inner pack also went in UNOPENED fished it out, opened and poured it in,brew came out fine,maybe I was lucky but sticking to cheaper dried yeast for now

As far as I am aware, the yeasty goodness is in the surrounding liquid and nutrient in the inner pack.
The swelling you saw was probably the pack warming up.
The swelling is really only there to identify yeast viability and the pack can be used unsmacked.
The pack should be populated enough to run a 20L batch no worries provided it is still current and has been stored properly.

 

[T.D.]

I believe Ross is spot on leave it in the pack untill it swells.

I still don't know why this point is being discussed here, its irrelevant to this thread! The original post specifically stated that the pack did swell before it was pitched!

 

[Wolfy]

I still don't know why this point is being discussed here, its irrelevant to this thread! The original post specifically stated that the pack did swell before it was pitched!

Because the general consensus is that - especially for older smack-packs - that smacking it a 'few hours' before pitching it, is generally not enough time for it to be fully active.

 

[mahonya1]

I still don't know why this point is being discussed here, its irrelevant to this thread! The original post specifically stated that the pack did swell before it was pitched!

Thanks TD,

So what do I do gentlemen? From the replies here, I obviously smacked the pack too soon, but it did swell and I pitched at correct temp, and the temp is still good but no action in the fermenter after 3 days. Do I re-pitch another yeast or wait??

 

[Ross]

Thanks TD,

So what do I do gentlemen? From the replies here, I obviously smacked the pack too soon, but it did swell and I pitched at correct temp, and the temp is still good but no action in the fermenter after 3 days. Do I re-pitch another yeast or wait??

Mahony,

If the pack did indeed swell within a few hours then all should be well as that indicates a very healthy cell count - with the lack of activity my suspicion is that what you are calling a swelling is probably nothing more than the pack warming. The pack when swelled properly goes rock hard like an inflated balloon but in a cylindrical shape.
After 3 days, if there's no activity on the surface at all, I'd be considering a fresh packet. That said I've never known a totally dead pack & as per my earlier post, if the fermenter is kept closed & you don't mess around with it, I'm sure it'll visibally fire in time.

Cheers Ross

 

[haysie]

Yep, zero visable/measureable activity for 30 days - not that I'd recommend it B)

cheers Ross

Was it the packaged yeast or the wild yeast that fermented the beer 30 days WOW!

 

[Gwyn]

The yeast dribbles etc realy get a hard time, everybody has their own method afterall its not cheap paying all that stinking postage for 1 wyeast pack.
My experience is..., yeast is hardy, too much fuss about stress n counts was a waste for me of resources. Sure sanitation is a must as well as ferment temps but the yeast itself I think, looks after itself. So much text book stuff confuses people.
I was a believer you didnt pitch old packs because of viability, thats a load of ****, i have pitched a 13 month old 1275 to a FES, no starter and lag time of 60 hours, attentuation was 73% and a cracker of a beer, not a once of, i have scoured the out of date bins at G &G HMMM..... every time I go there, . I was a believer you dont pitch warm yeast to cold wort, thats a load of ****, but thats a lager yeast and another story.
Underpitching,overpitching are great valid yeast debates thou <_<

Yeast is very hardy IMO.
If you gotta pitch without smacking? doesnt matter one iota.

edit, I`ll drag it out and post it later, recently BYO had an article re. underpitching and the results were very interesting.

FWIW I agree with haysie, when I'm doing lagers I only ever buy the older smack packs (cos they're cheaper ). I give the pack a couple of hours after I've smacked it then even if it hasn't blown up chuck it in a 1.5L starter. They usually take a couple of days to kick off, then they're good to go!