World's Bitterest Beer?

[stillscottish]

Just found this report in the UK Telegraph.
World's bitterest beer at 323 IBU.

Wasn't there one came out of Carbrook at 400 IBU?

Ross??

 

[dgilks]

I assume that this is measured IBUs rather than calculated IBUs. IIRC, Mikkeller has released a 1000 theoretical IBU beer. I would be curious to see what the actual is on that beer.

 

[BrenosBrews]

Simcoe, Centenial and Chinook...already sounds amazing.

 

[brendanos]

dgilks... you beat me to it!

 

[MHB]

No matter what the spin-doctors have to say the upper limit for bitterness is 90 IBU, some results get reported as up to 100 IBU, but thats because of the method used.

Alpha-Acid isnt the only hop product that goes into beer; using massive amounts of hops wont push the Bitterness over 90 IBU but may well add a lot of other hop products. For example Beta-Acid may only be as 1/9^th as bitter as Alpha-Acid, but if you are adding a truck load of hops its going to start to be important; apparently nobody measures Beta-Acid.
MHB

 

[Supra-Jim]

Hi MHB,

Do you have a link or some direction for further reading on the 90/100IBU glass ceiling (for want of a better description). I too have heard 100 is max you can get, but an curious to know the science behind it.

Cheers SJ

 

[.DJ.]

MHB,
interested to know why is 90 IBU the upper limit?

if I throw in 200g of a 14%AA hop for 60mins into a 1.040 wort, IBU's come out at around 240ish, so is there a limit of the AA absorbed into the wort or do I have no idea what I'm talking about?

 

[bum]

I'm interested in the answer to these questions myself but it is worth remembering that the article starts out by saying that the beer was tested and shown to be 323IBU. Doesn't go on to say what testing methods were used or who did it, of course.

 

[beersom]

No matter what the spin-doctors have to say the upper limit for bitterness is 90 IBU, some results get reported as up to 100 IBU, but thats because of the method used.

MHB

Different to what I was taught.
It is thought that the upper limit for bitterness perception is in the 80-90 BU range, but actual bitterness can be higher.
Wort should be able to hold BU's of over 100 arrived at via traditional hopping means. The NSW guild guys did a joint batch at Potters a few years ago that was tested in the Tooheys lab to well over 100 BU. Apparently when the lab guys were giving Bill taylor the results they told him that the brewer must have made a mistake as the bitterness was through the roof - Bill replied that it was no mistake. Scotty(///) will remember more details of that beer, which I believe was called shazaam.

Like yourself, I don't believe a 300 plus BU beer (heck even a 200BU beer) is possible via traditional hopping.
I think these guys use extracts to get to those figures.
Many of the big hopped US beers use extract to reach a portion of bittering before using traditional methods to maximise aroma and flavour whilst minimising wort loses.

 

[Fourstar]

Like yourself, I don't believe a 300 plus BU beer (heck even a 200BU beer) is possible via traditional hopping.
I think these guys use extracts to get to those figures.
Many of the big hopped US beers use extract to reach a portion of bittering before using traditional methods to maximise aroma and flavour whilst minimising wort loses.

Thats the method i would go for, hop extract for a clean bittering, then a BIIIIIIIG late hop addition to get the hop falvours/aroma going ontop.

Lagunitas Hop stoopid is a beer worth having thats been made solely w/extract IBU's. A very nice beer indeed and actually has some hop aroma complexity too.

 

[EK]

In Radical Brewing, Mosher lists a recipe for a 475IBU beer, he also states that it only "absorbs" 100IBU of bitterness.

I have no idea why this is, is there someone who can shed some light on it.

:icon_cheers:
EK

 

[brettprevans]

they might also treat their water to increase the perceived bitterness

 

[Fourstar]

In Radical Brewing, Mosher lists a recipe for a 475IBU beer, he also states that it only "absorbs" 100IBU of bitterness.

I have no idea why this is, is there someone who can shed some light on it.

:icon_cheers:
EK

I think it also has something todo with max isomerisation ability w/relation to the wort desity. I think once it gets into the low 100's its all theoretical IBU's although i dont know how the utilistation curve works once you hit the threshold.

 

[Tony]

My understanding is that the bitterness compounds (Alpha Acids) reach a saturation point. Similar to salt or sugar in water. There will be a point where no more of a given compound can be disolved into solution.

 

[Siborg]

In the Jan-Feb edition of BYO magazine, they noted that the brewing literature suggests a maximum IBU of 100 when discussing the BrewDog Brewery (Scotland) Hardcore IPA listed at 150IBU. They say its to do with the solubility and utilisation of iso-alpha acids. They also hinted that this may not hold true for beers about 8-9% ABV, as they were not aware of tests on high ABV beers.

 

[RobboMC]

Purely from a chemistry viewpoint, try putting sugar into a cup of tea.
You can only go on adding sugar for so long, at some point there comes
a limit on the amount that will dissolve, usually temperature dependent.
After that any suagr you add to the cup simply drops to the bottom and stays
solid.

All solutions have a limit, whether dissolving sugar in tea of alpha acids in wort.

 

[beersom]

In the Jan-Feb edition of BYO magazine, they noted that the brewing literature suggests a maximum IBU of 100 when discussing the BrewDog Brewery (Scotland) Hardcore IPA listed at 150IBU. They say its to do with the solubility and utilisation of iso-alpha acids. They also hinted that this may not hold true for beers about 8-9% ABV, as they were not aware of tests on high ABV beers.

Yeah, its not just the gravity but also the amount of alcohol in the finished beer and the fermentation and filtering (yep, I was advised that my DE filter could strip 1-2 BU from final product) that can have an effect on the BUs in beer and how they can be detected in testing. Apparently a low abv beer can carry less BU than a higher abv beer - although the high abv beer will likely have had a higher OG so will have had less utilisation of the hops used to gain that given number of BUs (meaning more hops)
What we should all remember when we quote beersmith, promash etc BU figures is that these are purely theoretical, not having been tested.
Percieved bitterness is another matter altogether and has to take into account many things BU:GU ratio, apparent attenuation/extract, ABV, aromatic nature and composition of the hops used (co-hum levels theory). Numbers can't really measure perceived bitterness.
Finer details and further than this are probably beyond me, we need a brewing chemist for this, but it is not as simple as the numbers on a computer program tell us.

 

[beersom]

Beta-Acid may only be as 1/9^th as bitter as Alpha-Acid, but if you are adding a truck load of hops its going to start to be important; apparently nobody measures Beta-Acid.
MHB

I was under the impression (potentially wrong) that Beta acid wasn't detected by the palette as bitter unless those beta acids had been oxidised - meaning that in the short term they don't come across as bitter but in an old/older beer (or from older hops)they can have some bearing.

Whilst beta-acids may or may not be tested for apparently there are other components in beer that have the potential get in the way during testing and register as AA meaning a higher than actual BU test.

Once again we need a brewing chemist who is doing regular BU tests on a range of beer to give a view on this .... will see if I can track one down and get back with an answer.

 

[Siborg]

Yeah, its not just the gravity but also the amount of alcohol in the finished beer and the fermentation and filtering (yep, I was advised that my DE filter could strip 1-2 BU from final product) that can have an effect on the BUs in beer and how they can be detected in testing. Apparently a low abv beer can carry less BU than a higher abv beer - although the high abv beer will likely have had a higher OG so will have had less utilisation of the hops used to gain that given number of BUs
What we should all remember when we quote beersmith, promash etc BU figures is that these are purely theoretical, not having been tested. (meaning more hops)
Percieved bitterness is another matter altogether and has to take into account many things BU:GU ratio, apparent attenuation/extract, ABV, aromatic nature and composition of the hops used (co-hum levels theory). Numbers can't really measure perceived bitterness.
Finer details and further than this are probably beyond me, we need a brewing chemist for this, but it is not as simple as the numbers on a computer program tell us.

Kind of a catch 22... You want more IBU in a beer, brew a higher ABV beer, but then you need a higher OG beer, which decreases hop utilisation.

 

[MHB]

The 90 and 100 IBU numbers come about because of the two different methods used. The older method is to use a solvent like octane to extract the Iso-Alpha, then to measure the absorbance in a UV spectrometer, this measures the Iso, it also measures some other hop products and reports a higher total IBU.

The newer method (the current ASBC and EBC method) uses HPLC and only reports the Alpha Acids so you get the True IBUs



Ive been talking to customers between bursts of typing; I see some of you have already said nearly the same thing cheers



God I hate it when some marketing wanker gets between me and the truth. The BrewDog guys are talking shit, call it spin if you want to be kind, bit like Pigs Fly, ever read the package do you really think they use 6 row malt?

MHB