Work Wanted, Brewery/brewpub.

[dgilks]

I'm not a religious capitalist by any means, but if there's heaps of people throwing themselves at breweries to work for free then they're not exactly being exploited are they?

IMO all forms of work are mutual exploitation.

It is exploitation in the sense that they are using their dominant position of control to dictate the terms. IMO, it is a form of exploitation if the employer pays anything less than what they would have to pay to get someone for whom the job is not also a hobby. Eg, if it would take $20/hr to get a brewery assistant who didn't give a rat's behind about the art of brewing, than it shouldn't cost less than that to get a keen and enthusiastic brewer (especially one who wants to build a career). If you are paying less, you are exploiting that person's passion for your own gain.

 

[jiesu]

I understand all of that. In terms of the artist comparison, I see that as different as it is self-employment for all intents and purposes. In terms of the argument that there are enough people who are willing to do it for free/next to nothing, my view is that such conditions shouldn't justify the use of volunteer labour in a profit making venture. That is why we have minimum wages, to prevent employers from taking advantage of employees in such ways.

I think that some things are slightly different, for example Red Hill's hop picking day is a touch different in that they are providing food and it is a one-off type event as opposed to using free labour day in and day out. In any case, it is about the entrepreneur being the person who should take the entrepreneurial risk. The only people who shouldn't be taking a wage are the owners as their rewards should come in the form of dividends when/if they make their business successful.

I love free markets and capitalism as much as the next person but I don't think that our economic system should support business that take advantage of those with a passion just because they can, and that is what is happening is a brewery expects a budding brewer to work for free.

Well of course On a day in day out basis it is a pathetic way to run a business and expecting someone to work for more then 1 day for free is certainly poor form but you have to question wether employing a person for 1 day of labour is actually beneficial at all to the business employing them, It takes a day to get your head around where the bathrooms are and what time lunch is in a new job. I think it is more a way of the employer getting to know the attitude and personality of the employee, their interview and resume should be able to provide an indication of their experience and Sanity but weather someone has the determination, focus and attitude to complete a task you will not know until you hire them. I think if the terms are clear that you will have a one day trial and the employee is happy for that to happen then their is no loser in the situation as long as peoples intentions are good on both sides.

I am happy to work 1 day for free If I know that I have a good possibility of having a long list of payed ones afterwards.

 

[jiesu]

It is exploitation in the sense that they are using their dominant position of control to dictate the terms. IMO, it is a form of exploitation if the employer pays anything less than what they would have to pay to get someone for whom the job is not also a hobby. Eg, if it would take $20/hr to get a brewery assistant who didn't give a rat's behind about the art of brewing, than it shouldn't cost less than that to get a keen and enthusiastic brewer (especially one who wants to build a career). If you are paying less, you are exploiting that person's passion for your own gain.

Very good point, That is certainly a shit way of oing things. If anything they should be payed more. They will certainly do a better job.

 

[WSC]

I'm not a religious capitalist by any means, but if there's heaps of people throwing themselves at breweries to work for free then they're not exactly being exploited are they?

IMO all forms of work are mutual exploitation.

Agree, be different if people promised wages for work but didn't pay. As long as both parties enter into an agreement with full disclosure then there is no issue. I did a day in a micro and got heaps of knowledge, some hops and a few beers. I didn't feel exploited.

Also this is about poeple approaching the brewery not the brewery advertising for volunteers. It's all good.

 

[MarkBastard]

The thing is a micro may not specifically need a worker, but it would be a 'nice to have' that they can't afford. Let's say the micro is really small and the owner does most of the work.

So it's like, the owner can do all the work himself, maybe work a longer day staying back cleaning etc, or he may know someone that's keen to help out and learn as well. If it came down to paying minimum wage and payroll tax etc for the worker then the owner would just have to say no, and do the work himself, but then this kid is really keen and he'll get something out of it too, so where's the harm in letting him volunteer? There isn't any harm.

I think this is a different thing to exploiting the general keenness of an under skilled poor person and giving them a job at $10 an hour when minimum wage is higher.

In my opinion you have to take into account the circumstances of the person offering the unpaid work, and the circumstances of the person applying for the unpaid work, and common sense should be able to prevail.

 

[Gerard_M]

Have a read of this

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...ldrick&st=0

Cheers
Gerard

 

[jiesu]

Have a read of this

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...ldrick&st=0

Cheers
Gerard

Thanks, an interesting read. not sure I am up for a chemistry Degree! I really like the whole brewing process but I do agree with what people say in that thread
that brewing the same beers over and over would become painful and taint the homebrew process.
I like the creative element of brewing, its one of the things that attracted me in the first place.

 

[dgilks]

I had no idea my comments would be so controversial. Anyway, I agree with those who are saying that a 1 day trial is not a big issue, it isn't. My main concern is where we are talking about regular and ongoing "employment", it is in that sort of case that I have serious problems with it.

 

[Wolfy]

Here's one right on this link (unfortunately wrong state) :
Trainee Brewer

That job has been filled, I had an interview but yesterday Dave called me to say someone else (with more technical experience) got the job.
In that case they were looking for someone who could do many things, including lots of physical and drudge work, drive a truck/assisting with deliveries 1-2 days a week, assisting with bottling 1-2 days a week, cleaning the brewhouse 1 day a week, assisting brewing 1 day a week, the job was likened more to a repetitive production line situation than something glamorous where you'd be crafting/creating beers all the time.
The head brewer said he had completed the 2 year university course at UB so if you were serious about getting into the industry, I'd presume that's a good place to start.

 

[Glenn Hargreaves]

As a brewer myself here is my two cents worth.

Qualifications do help. Out of the 20 odd people who did the Grad Cert at Ballarat with me maybe 5 of us a now working in the industry. So there are a lot of people who are Ag brewers and are qualified looking to get into the industry.
Alot of it can be right place right time, but most of it is knowing the right people and keeping your ear to the ground.
I know what people are saying about free labour, i don't agree that using someone constantly for free labour is a fair situation but any little bit of brewery experience will put you a little bit ahead of the rest of the pack looking to get in.
End of the day if you want to make a good wage or even some extra pocket money, then brewing probably isn't the best avenue.
Overall i wouldn't discourage anyone from chasing there dream job, i may get paid alot less than i used to but i am 10 times happier in my job.

Cheers
Glenn

 

[///]

O'Henry was our work-experience brewer this summer, and he kicked booty. Firstly, he got the hint on meat-pie friday (even as a vego) and turned up with necessary supplies, and secondly worked hard and got his nose round the system. Sadly he has left us for the ECU degree.

But such is the boring-ness of making consistent beer, that is the true art!

Scotty

 

[jiesu]

O'Henry was our work-experience brewer this summer, and he kicked booty. Firstly, he got the hint on meat-pie friday (even as a vego) and turned up with necessary supplies, and secondly worked hard and got his nose round the system. Sadly he has left us for the ECU degree.

But such is the boring-ness of making consistent beer, that is the true art!

Scotty

Sorry Scotty, I completly missed your post.
Seing as you guys have just re-opened the harts I imagine you would have a fairly increased work load? Don't suppose you need a bit of good ole fashioned labour to give you a hand every now and then? Even if you guys don't need the extra work I would love to come down some time and see how you guys make that delicious red ale of yours!



Cheers Jake.

 

[alowen474]

Alternatively you can find a girl who's dad owns a brewery and has big ...

As long as she farks on first dates. :lol:

 

[///]

Hi Mate

The work will increase, not sure how we will fit it in to be honest!

AG is the numero uno at 5 Islands where we brew the Rocks Beer, so best to call AG mob 0429 455 044. Its usually an early kick-off on brew day, and the schedule moves around a bit. So best to drop him a line and go from there. (tell him I told you to call).

Rgds

Scotty

 

[brendanos]

O'Henry was our work-experience brewer this summer, and he kicked booty. Firstly, he got the hint on meat-pie friday (even as a vego) and turned up with necessary supplies, and secondly worked hard and got his nose round the system. Sadly he has left us for the ECU degree.

But such is the boring-ness of making consistent beer, that is the true art!

Scotty

Your loss is our (Perth's) win!!

 

[Pete2501]

Your loss is our (Perth's) win!!

Yeah he's working a Little Creatures in Perth now. I can't believe how he scored that job. And I was there. :lol:

 

[Scruffy]

There's a lot of glamour associated with certain jobs, but in reality, if you broke it down, the glamour part prolly makes up about 5% (if that...). If you're in the film industry (sounds good already dunnit?) and I don't know what others did, but I was a Re-recording engineer in the UK (amongst other things), the Film arrived at the studio, I'd watch it, then watch it again, then watch it again, then start with the first three or four seconds, then discuss how the mix was going with the director and anyone else with an opinion (which is shed loads in the industry), then remix the first 3/4 seconds, stop, rewind, change the EQ on a footstep (yes really), then rewind to the beginning and add another atmospheric track, then maybe continue to 8 or 9 seconds in. Then the producer would change his mind... so... I must have watched anything I've done at least a thousand times, over the course of a week or so, over and over again...
Same with brewing... Wash, clean, wash again, clean, clean other shit, brew, pour into fermenter, wash and clean, sterilise EVERY day (office work, ordering shit and paying for it) making sure other people pay you, washing, cleaning bottle, send it away, wash....

 

[jiesu]

There's a lot of glamour associated with certain jobs, but in reality, if you broke it down, the glamour part prolly makes up about 5% (if that...). If you're in the film industry (sounds good already dunnit?) and I don't know what others did, but I was a Re-recording engineer in the UK (amongst other things), the Film arrived at the studio, I'd watch it, then watch it again, then watch it again, then start with the first three or four seconds, then discuss how the mix was going with the director and anyone else with an opinion (which is shed loads in the industry), then remix the first 3/4 seconds, stop, rewind, change the EQ on a footstep (yes really), then rewind to the beginning and add another atmospheric track, then maybe continue to 8 or 9 seconds in. Then the producer would change his mind... so... I must have watched anything I've done at least a thousand times, over the course of a week or so, over and over again...
Same with brewing... Wash, clean, wash again, clean, clean other shit, brew, pour into fermenter, wash and clean, sterilise EVERY day (office work, ordering shit and paying for it) making sure other people pay you, washing, cleaning bottle, send it away, wash....

Yeah definetly agree with that! But I guess at the end of the day it is all work isn't it? No matter what you do their is going to be some repetitive element to it. My ideal job would be someone who travels the world for no particular reason in random directions by differing modes of transport and staying In alternating ranges of accomodation drinking at least 3 completely different beers every day. Unfortunatly no one will pay me to do that and I sure as hell can't afford to finance it
It is probably why I chose the camera department in the film Industry as my chosen profession. At least you are working with different equipment, people and environments for different scripts every time you jump in the car in the morning.
I think you need to find a job that relates to one of your interests and focus on the elements that you take the most enjoyment out of. Well thats my philosiphy anyway.

 

[HoppingMad]

:icon_offtopic: Don't 100% agree. Not sure I agree that all jobs would get repetitive and boring.

Take puppeteering for example:

 

[Gerard_M]

Nothing boring about working in a brewery. Plenty of cleaning but if you find it boring then maybe it is time for a change.
Cheers
Gerard