Williamswarn Brewery Operation and Explanation

[Beerisyummy]

Hey Wobbly,


Can you give us any information on the pressure control setup on the WW?
I'm interested in what sort of regulator is used and how it's setup.

Post edited by Moderator

 

[wobbly]

Beerisyummy

Glad to provide you with information requested.

The circuit is dead simple and can best be described as a manual set up. The guts of the system is the spudding valve which is a basic an adjustable spring loaded relief valve. As you screw the top down you put more pressure on the spring which in turn holds the piston/plunger onto the seat. As pressure builds up so the piston moves off the seat and releases CO2

I have tried to replicate the CO2 circuit in the attached Excel drawing

Temperature control is via an adjustable Omron temperature controller

All the settings are manual there is no fancy control system/program linking it all together

Trust this is all clear to you. If not let me know and I will have another attempt

Cheers

Wobbly

View attachment WW Flow Chart.xlsx

 

[wobbly]

Beerisyummy

Thinking about it the above may not have addressed the question you asked

When the WW is next empty (week or two) I will pull the spudding valve apart and see if there are any manufacturer details and/or sketch the internals or photograph the removable bits and post so that you can get a better idea of how it works

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[Beerisyummy]

Beerisyummy

Thinking about it the above may not have addressed the question you asked

When the WW is next empty (week or two) I will pull the spudding valve apart and see if there are any manufacturer details and/or sketch the internals or photograph the removable bits and post so that you can get a better idea of how it works

Cheers

Wobbly

Thanks Wobbly. That all makes perfect sense.
Pictures of the internals would be great.

I was interested in the valves used because I've been doing a bit of my own experimenting with pressure fermenting. So far I've found that the poor old spunding valve takes a beating with all the venting gases. Never mind the potential for krausen and hop debris. It would be great to see how the WW is set up to deal with these problems.

I guess if you post photos of the internals( and any manufacturer details) it will dispel the hint of "affiliation" people have previously mentioned. I'm not saying you're affiliated as you've stated you aren't but, posting that sort of thing should drive the point home.

PS. Dip your toes into lager territory Wobbly and throw a damned power meter on that thing.

 

[Yob]

How about some photo's of a typical run through...

Items with photo's always sell faster here

 

[wobbly]

How about some photo's of a typical run through...

Not sure what photos you would be after detailing a "Typical Run Through" as there is basically nothing to see that isn't covered in the user manual. If you haven't seen/read it the attached link will take you to it. The manual is 5.3 mb so too large to attach. The only thing different that I do is instead of using a "kit" I am using fresh wort and dried yeast otherwise the process is the same from start to finish. Now that I have a few brews under the belt I will investigate/try using liquid yeast as I'm sure they will not be an issue and I doubt that it will be necessary to make a starter for most other than maybe lagers or pilsners. Ian Williams has commented in an interview back in 2012 that there is nothing to prevent you from using specialty yeasts and or fermenting colder than his standard 15C for lagers/pilsners and comments that if you want to ferment at 12C it will take a few more days to reach terminal gravity so adjust your schedule accordingly

http://www.williamswarn.com/The-WilliamsWarn/pod-files/WWGen2Manualv22Web.pdf

Then we can copy his design and get the chinese to knock out a cheap version....

My LHBS has already investigated this and found that it is not easy to get all the necessary approvals to import gassed refrigeration equipment into Australia from China. He also looked into the possibility of importing minus the refrigeration unit and retro fitting that in Australia but there were a number of issue with that option that didn't make it worthwhile so it has been shelved for now.
Items with photo's always sell faster here

As and when time permits I will take a few photos of the various stuff behind the side/rear panel if that's what you want to see - not that there is much to see.

• Glycol tank
• Danfos refrigeration unit
• John Gest piping and fittings
• Insulation

I won't be pulling anything apart to photograph inner workings though

The issue I am seeing with the amount of break material is most likely because the WW system is basically designed for use with "kits" where the extract would have been centrifuged prior to vacuum reduction and hence most/all of the break material removed where as my basic method of break material removal (whirlpool and settle) would be a far cry from what centrifuging would achieve

I don't believe I am seeing any more or less break material out of the Braumeister than I was seeing in the plastic FV which was around a centimetre or so on the bottom mixed up with the settled yeast at the end of the fermentation phase. It's just more than can be collected/accommodated in the 900ml sediment bottle along with the chill haze material that is also dropped out of suspension.

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[Beerisyummy]

Can you please pull the PRV apart and take some photos. Time permitting of course.
It's covered in the instruction manual so it's not a warranty breaker.

Cheers.

Edit: Also, is the gauge an oil filled type? Which brand?

 

[wobbly]

Parks re your comment

I would like to know if you felt it had no esters or it simply lacked the yeast character normally produced in alternative fermentations.

Obviously I didn't make myself as clear or as objective as I should have. My comment was in reference to the yeasty "flavour" I use to get with beers that I bottled or those that were fermented at basically an uncontrolled fermentation temperature before I started fermenting in a refrigerator with some degree of control over the temperature it fermented at

If in the past I allowed a beer to ferment at 23C you could taste the quite significant difference between that beer and one fermented at 18C. My taste buds may not be all that good but I can say without hesitation these beers fermented in the WW at 23C to me taste no different to what I was getting fermenting at 18C

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[wobbly]

Can you please pull the PRV apart and take some photos. Time permitting of course

Don't have a problem with that my comment is basically about not disassembling any of the machinery

The pressure gauge has the following markings and doesn't appear to be oil filled

Nuova
FIMA
EN 837 - 1
1 - 4 bar

Cheers

Woibbly

 

[Beerisyummy]

Can you please pull the PRV apart and take some photos. Time permitting of course

Don't have a problem with that my comment is basically about not disassembling any of the machinery

The pressure gauge has the following markings and doesn't appear to be oil filled

Nuova
FIMA
EN 837 - 1
1 - 4 bar

Cheers

Woibbly

Thanks Wobbly!
I'm not stressed about much else in the unit other than the PRV. It looks like a slightly different variation to the common ones available and I'm a sucker for new ideas.

It would be great to know how much juice the unit uses under normal use. If you do have a power meter plug that would be some useful info.

I totally agree with your comment about the beer fermented under pressure being "cleaner" than normal. 2.9 simple lagers into pressure fermenting and I'm getting very similar results to your ales.
The first one I tried was done similar to the WW instruction manual (by accident), the second was done at 25c and the third was done at 10c for 4 days before being allowed to heat up.
The first one was OK, but was getting better as it aged. No surprises there apart from how quick and clean it fermented compared to my usual tub routine.
The second one was way too funky for a lager, but it was not anything like the lawn fertiliser that comes out of a normal FV at that temp.
The third batch is just crash cooling now to clarify and the sample is the cleanest tasting lager I've managed to date. That's with some yeast still in suspension.

Heck, all the literature points to this being a useful control measure, so why not do it if you can?
20 odd litres at a time would give me the shits, but I'd love a system as neat as yours. Keep the reports coming mate.

 

[wobbly]

I have started this new topic thread in an attempt to have the discussion deal with experiences and suggestions associated with both the WW machine, the process and possible benefits/disadvantages/limitations of fermenting under pressure at higher temperature etc.

I hope those that post in this thread will add to the knowledge base on this method of fermentation rather than seeking to bag a particular piece of equipment

If the moderators consider some of the later comments in the other thread are relevant to this redirection maybe they could arrange to move them over such that those interested will be able to see/read all the relevant subject material

I hope this will turn out to be a useful thread where ideas and results will be posted

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[gordo_t]

Hey Wobbly,

How much pressure are you applying to the wort straight after adding your yeast, or are you just setting the relief valve and letting it build up?

What's your pressure/time/temp schedule so far for your Ales?

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

Some good current info on pressurized fermentation including current experiments under way here http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/75447-pressurized-fermentation/ that is a good reference for discussion here.

 

[wobbly]

G_T_G

Answers below and bear in mind that this is based on my experience to date (4 brews only with the WW) and is in general lines with the WW user instruction manual. With time and experience this might change

• I apply about 0.5 bar after adding wort just to check that the lid has sealed properly and the system will hold pressured
• Then release all CO2 pressure back to zero and then let pressure build up with fermentation
• I then initial set the relief valve to about 1.5 bar equivalent after pitching yeast as experience has shown me how far to screw PRV down to get close to this value
• Once fermentation starts and pressure builds up I trim the PRV as required.
• With 23lt of 1040 OG wort and pitched with 1 packet (11gms) US-05 rehydrated yeast and temperature set at 22C pressure will generally build up to the 1.5 bar within about 18 hours.
• Brew is left to ferment at the 1.5 bar and 22C for 4 days by which time it has generally reached terminal gravity of around 1010/12
• Brew is then cold crashed to 2C (still at 1.5 bar pressure) for 12 hours to drop yeast into sediment bottle
• Sediment bottle emptied and clarification liquid added and system left for 24 hours (still at 1.5 bar pressure)
• Second clarification added after 24 hours and left for 24 to 36 hours (still at 1.5 bar pressure)
• Cycle is complete and beer is carbonated and ready to consume/bottle/keg what ever you do.
• There is no need/reason to allow the fresh beer to "condition for a number of days/weeks with the Ales I have brewed to date
• I am yet to brew a pilsner but doubt that the process will be much different other than fermenting at 15C for three days followed by a 3 day diacetal rest before chill for yeast drop etc.

Trust this answers your questions

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[dicko]

I have started this new topic thread in an attempt to have the discussion deal with experiences and suggestions associated with both the WW machine, the process and possible benefits/disadvantages/limitations of fermenting under pressure at higher temperature etc.

I hope those that post in this thread will add to the knowledge base on this method of fermentation rather than seeking to bag a particular piece of equipment

If the moderators consider some of the later comments in the other thread are relevant to this redirection maybe they could arrange to move them over such that those interested will be able to see/read all the relevant subject material

I hope this will turn out to be a useful thread where ideas and results will be posted

Cheers

Wobbly

I have moved the relevant threads from the other topic.
Unfortunately the posts are a bit out of order but they do appear to read OK.

Well done Wobbly, the info will be a lot easier to follow now.

 

[rehabs_for_quitters]

Are you aerating the wort before chucking it in the WW or just chilling and transferring?

 

[roger mellie]

G_T_G

Answers below and bear in mind that this is based on my experience to date (4 brews only with the WW) and is in general lines with the WW user instruction manual. With time and experience this might change

• I apply about 0.5 bar after adding wort just to check that the lid has sealed properly and the system will hold pressured
• Then release all CO2 pressure back to zero and then let pressure build up with fermentation
• I then initial set the relief valve to about 1.5 bar equivalent after pitching yeast as experience has shown me how far to screw PRV down to get close to this value
• Once fermentation starts and pressure builds up I trim the PRV as required.
• With 23lt of 1040 OG wort and pitched with 1 packet (11gms) US-05 rehydrated yeast and temperature set at 22C pressure will generally build up to the 1.5 bar within about 18 hours.
• Brew is left to ferment at the 1.5 bar and 22C for 4 days by which time it has generally reached terminal gravity of around 1010/12
• Brew is then cold crashed to 2C (still at 1.5 bar pressure) for 12 hours to drop yeast into sediment bottle
• Sediment bottle emptied and clarification liquid added and system left for 24 hours (still at 1.5 bar pressure)
• Second clarification added after 24 hours and left for 24 to 36 hours (still at 1.5 bar pressure)
• Cycle is complete and beer is carbonated and ready to consume/bottle/keg what ever you do.
• There is no need/reason to allow the fresh beer to "condition for a number of days/weeks with the Ales I have brewed to date
• I am yet to brew a pilsner but doubt that the process will be much different other than fermenting at 15C for three days followed by a 3 day diacetal rest before chill for yeast drop etc.

Trust this answers your questions

Cheers

Wobbly

Wobbly

Will be doing a Pils tomorrow and will try and take pictures to detail the whole mad science experiment.

Cheers

RM

 

[wobbly]

Roger Mellie posted in the "other thread" that one limitation on the WW could be the ability to brew Lambics or High Gravity Beers

The following is an e-mail I received from a long time fellow WW owner who lives in McLaren Vale South Australia on how he "tweaked" the system to be able brew high gravity beers. I cannot claim any knowledge good or bad about what he does but it just shows you that with some thought a lot of things may be possible

Quote
"Belgians are easy, it all depends on how high you want to go in the alcohol stakes.

The WW is easy to drive, just a few simple modifications that aren’t the normal.

1st make a 2 litre starter, to that add a smack pack of Wyeast 3711 Saison yeast, and if you intend to go past the 8.5% ABV, it will go higher, but let’s err on the side of caution, we don’t want autolysis, we want the yeast to attenuate, so it can be removed.

Have a pkt of Champagne yeast ready. You now have an empty sediment bottle.You shove that in to the WW in the normal way through the sediment bottle, when you observe no more decrease in the S.G.

When you add the champagne yeast this will take you up to 25%ABV if you have enough goodies in the malt stakes to get there. Also make sure you have added 750g of white sugar, this will give you the sourness and dryness.
Next follow your recipe for the malts and hops, or do want one of mine. Fill to the 23Litre mark. You can safely put 26 litres in the WW. I do it all the time, that way you have 23 litres left after clarification etc. when you have to dump. I compensate with an extra 500g LDME.

Oxygenate the wert, take a S.G. reading.

Pitch your yeast and all of the starter into the WW. Screw the lid on, you can’t use the sediment bottle for this addition. Set the VRVP for 2.5BAR. Monitor this fairly closely as it can move up fairly quickly in the first 24 hours.

Set the temperature at 18Deg. Usually 24 hours. When Krausen is good and active and quite solid, go to 20Deg, hold for 2 days, then 28Deg.

Now turn off your WW when it has been sitting for 2 days at 28Deg. From now on it’s a conical fermenter with damb good insulation. Do not undo the lid. You need all the pressure to make the grade.

Now the only way you can monitor your brew is through the use of the font tap, pull off 100mls, measure temperature, this can go up fairly quickly, my last got to 38deg. The 3711 can handle this temperature, it sure puts funk in the brew. You can also monitor the S.G.

I can get my ferments from SG 1.120 to 1.008 quite comfortably, I had one go down to 1.002, shit it was dry."

Trust this is grist to the mill for some/anyone who is considering a unit and would want to make big Belgian beers

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[mooncat]

Hi all I think I may be at risk of breaking forum etiquette as I have posted on the other thread before realising this one was open. Anyway at the risk of repetition I am looking at different ways of dry hopping and wondered what the merits or risks would be in sterilising a cafetiere and making a hoptea at 80 degrees, cooling to approx 23 degrees and adding to the brewerey after three days when the ferment is calming and topping up with foam as per clarification process

 

[wobbly]

Hi Mooncat

I posed a similar question to Ian Williams a few weeks back as follows:-

If I wanted to “Late hop” post most of the fermentation phase/stage (as I understand that the yeast will strip a lot of the aroma out of the beer during fermentation) so as to increase the “aroma” in the beer how could I do this?

• Add some hops (Pellets or Flowers) to the sediment bottle after clarification
• Make a “Hop Tea” and add this to the finished beer through the clarification port

And his response was

Before you clarify, take the yeast off as normal and put say 50g of hops in the sediment bottle. Add ½ way with boiling water and dissolve. Top up with beer foam as during clarification. Put the sediment bottle back on. Open the tank valve in a way that minimises turbulence to the hops. In short bursts. Open close. Then when full open fully leave 5 days then take off and clarify as normal.

Or do it after clarification. And leave it as you drink. Get stronger as the days go by and you’re drinking a few inches from above the hops.

The impt thing is to avoid hops going up the tap as it can block the tap. So only pour a beer once settled and maybe blow CO2 back the line for 2 seconds by a fake clarification with no agent.

It pretty much settles as green hops at the bottom of the sediment bottle and infuses flavour upwards.

I'm not convinced that you couldn't blow a "hop tea"| made in a French press into the chamber through the clarification port. It would just take a few shots to pass the anything more than about 50mm of liquid. If you did this you would need to leave it for a few days and then clarify to remove any/all the fine hop residue.

If/when you have a question send Ian an email he is very willing to answer and I have found him to be very helpful

There is an e-mail address on the web page and if that doesn't work for you send me a PM and I will forward you the e-mail contact details I have

Cheers

Wobbly