Why Do Kit Brewers Try To Emulate Brewery Beers

[Bribie G]

I've only ever done two extract beers, using LDME, and they turned out ok but nothing like anything commercial. However I spent ten months trying to make a clone of Melbourne Bitter using kits with a partial mash and dextrose and finally gave up because although I had a couple of very successful brews, overall I was finding a lot of variation in the quality of the kits themselves. Even good old Coopers Lager can vary enormously depending on where you buy it and how long it has been on the shelf at what temperature. So the OP is dead right in that using kits takes most of the control away from the brewer and the kit ends up as a foe rather than a friend. Took me 10 months to work that out, must be a slow learner.

Nowadays my house lager is Carlton style but it's a lot more flavourful and smooth, and about 5.5%. It hits that exact spot that I was looking for in my Melbourne project and visitors and friends can't believe it's home brew. The secret? Thanks to info I have gleaned from posts of a certain forum member who is 'in the know' I use the same ingredients as they buy in at Abbotsford / Yatala (BB Malt, sugar - heck how simple is that) but have 'refined' the process a bit by using real hops (POR / Superpride) instead of isohop, and also include some rice in the mash which I find smooths out the beer and gives improved clarity. Whilst I can't get the Carlton yeast of course I have it on good authority that Wyeast Californian is an almost perfect sub.

Point is, after nearly a year of faffing around with partials and kits I have acheived one of my original aims and can brew a dead reliable Classic Australian that is now my house brand, but without that year of struggle I would not have picked up the skills and knowledge. Two days ago I took a deep breath and attempted my holy grail of holy grails and knocked out a Czech Pilsener ... about to whack the Urquell pack this morning. I feel that I have been doing Brewing 101 for the last year, now my journey is really picking up speed.

Then to go to work on my house UK bitter

 

[bum]

The following is merely an observation in the form of a rhetorical question, rather than a provocation:

Am I the only person who noticed that many of those defending Kit brewers are more patronising than the OP?

The following is a provocation in the form of an observation (and a physical insult):

you shouldn't be afraid to create something of your own. Be it something that is passionfruity like squires hop thief with the maltyness of an Oettinger and the yeastyness of a firestone or the bitterness of an arrogant ******* ale, Make it your own and dont be afraid to try using things which are frowned upon by others.

Do you see how you've completely undermined your own point in the sentence where you've tried to distill it into its purest form? You've used commercial beers as your reference point, dicktard.

 

[Supra-Jim]

Alas Bum, I think his intention was to use commerical examples to exemplify hop flavour, maltiness, yeast and finally bitterness, all rolled up in one beer. Rather than suggesting one brews an example of each.

It would not work to say, hey made a brew with the kind of malt backbone shown in my last brew, cos chances are no-one online has tasted it.

In the end comparisons against (good or bad) commerical examples will always happen, be it through people attempting to clone the original (nothing wrong there) or people using a commerical example to decribe and attribute of the brew.

For some reason, possibly the incredibly immature child that dwells within me (and controls me), calling the OP a dicktard made me giggle! h34r:

Cheers SJ

 

[bum]

The reason it undermines his point is because if someone wants to make a beer that has the hop profile of a LCPA, the malt profile of a LCPA, the yeast character of a LCPA then - oh, look at that! - they want to make something very much like a LCPA. But let's take your description of his usage of the references at face value: All he's done, then, is said "You should be trying to emulate 4 beers, not one." And for what it is worth the beer described sounds hideous. What does he do with 300lt of that stuff?

Then moving on to his assertion that just going on to extract fixes the problems inherent in kit brewing - absolute pus! All it does is expose the new brewer to an untold number variables (with their own numerous process related variables). The only way to control these variables without experience and knowledge is through using a reference point/recipe. Or a kit because as far as I can tell the only difference between extract brewing and K&B brewing is a long boil for bittering - everything else is about the same. Selecting the right kit instead (if one exists) could take a lot of guesswork out of making a good beer. Why one would elevate extract brewing so far above kit brewing makes no sense to me.

 

[sinkas]

masculator?

is this post 'roid-rage

 

[Supra-Jim]

Not wanting to get into the K&K verses Extract but an all extract brew, esp one with some steeped grains is a major step up and beoyond what you get with your K&K (lets say it's brewed with what you can get at Coles). My beers improved dramatically when i switched to extract over K&B, and my first one was an attempt at Sierra Nevada Pale Ale. I have no issue with attempting clones at all.

I do agree with you though that attempting a clone can be a good reference point, provided the right beer is chosen. Some beers are very difficult to clone with K&B or K&K, even with extract brewing.

At the end of the day, it's horses for courses and whatever the brewer feels comfortable in doing.

Cheers SJ

 

[bum]

At the end of the day, it's horses for courses and whatever the brewer feels comfortable in doing.

No argument here.

 

[Snow]

not trying to make it out as the newest and greatest smurto just trying to encourage some of the newer brewers to think outside thi box and try to create what they desire/imagine to be their desired beer.

Mate just the fact they are on this site means they are already starting to think outside the box. The box being buying a kit, adding sugar and packet yeast. Development of skills through incremental steps in using different ingredients and "cloning" beers you're familiar with is a logical step to developing your brewing repertoire. Very few brewers have the wherewithall to jump straight from kits to formulating their own recipes using extract, grain or whatever. Also, bear in mind that many commercial beers that people are trying to clone are good examples of a particular style. So, someone trying to nail a particular beer may be doing the same thing as someone picking up a style guideline and trying to brew to the letter of the "law".

Cheers - Snow

 

[Supra-Jim]

No argument here.

Sweet, now does anyone have a good K&K or K&B recipe to make a spot on Tooheys New clone???

Cheers SJ

(PS Chappo, I know you have a K&B recipe for Tooheys Red, but I don't want it!!!)

 

[bum]

Sweet, now does anyone have a good K&K or K&B recipe to make a spot on Tooheys New clone???

I think manticle posted it earlier in this thread.

 

[muckey]

Sweet, now does anyone have a good K&K or K&B recipe to make a spot on Tooheys New clone???

Cheers SJ

(PS Chappo, I know you have a K&B recipe for Tooheys Red, but I don't want it!!!)

yeah but it aint much different to Chappo's h34r:

seriously people start out trying to emulate the beers they enjoy drinking and having moved into AG I'm still trying to brew the beers I enjoy drinking even though thats changed a lot.

I think the motivation is: I like drinking X beer -> i believe home brew is cheaper and better -> I'd like to have a cheaper better version of X beer.

Then they work out how much better beer can really be and so starts the slide on the slippery slope.

(I mean to all grain, not the slippery slope where you fall in your beer :lol: )

 

[Katherine]

@masculator:

Sure, I get what you're trying to do and I agree with the point. It's what I'm constantly trying to do with my own beer.

It's just that if someone pops their head up wanting to know a simple thing and is rubbished with all grain or general beer snobbery, they may retreat instead of giving it a red hot go.

My introduction to this forum was asking if it would be ok if I kept my Brigalow Ginger beer after I broke my hydrometer in it.

I'm still here, and I'm now partial mashing, designing recipes and constantly thinking about better beer but even I have to admit I started as a nuff-nuff. I happen to be fairly thick skinned, particularly where the internet is concerned but I can imagine a brewer popping up and asking " how do I make xxx", being met with derision and either returning to buying megaswill or making cheaparse homebrand 'lager' with 3 kg of sugar and getting mashed every night.

We want to encourage people away from that (which is the point of your thread) but gently will be more effective than "OMG WHY MUST YOU DO THAT YOU IGNORANT PLEBIAN"?

I never thought I'd be encouraging people to be polite on the internet. Get stuffed the lot of you.

Bastards.

HA we have mashed a hyrdometer!

Why do any of us have to justify HOW or WHAT we brew. The one thing we all have in common is BEER!

edit: spelling (some of us are better spellers)

 

[Snow]

HA we have mashed a hyrdometer!

Why does any of us have to justify HOW or WHAT we brew. The one thing we all have in common is BEER!

Amen!

 

[manticle]

If being mashed, hydrometers need to be double decocted and saccharificationally rested with a pH of 4.7 for 37 minutes underneath a 6 year old wattle tree coated in naturally made Belgian Candi sugar.

The one thing we all have in common is BEER!

The one thing we all have in common is BEER!

The one thing we all have in common is BEER!

The one thing we all have in common is BEER!

I agree so much I have to quote it four times.

 

[mwd]

HA we have mashed a hyrdometer!

Why does any of us have to justify HOW or WHAT we brew. The one thing we all have in common is BEER!

+2

BTW having a problem making my Stella Artois 'Clone' from my Coopers Stout Kit :lol:

Brewcraft making plenty from Clone style Kits so no denying it is a popular theme for Kit brewers starting out.

 

[Sammus]

@masculator:

Sure, I get what you're trying to do and I agree with the point. It's what I'm constantly trying to do with my own beer.

It's just that if someone pops their head up wanting to know a simple thing and is rubbished with all grain or general beer snobbery, they may retreat instead of giving it a red hot go.

My introduction to this forum was asking if it would be ok if I kept my Brigalow Ginger beer after I broke my hydrometer in it.

I'm still here, and I'm now partial mashing, designing recipes and constantly thinking about better beer but even I have to admit I started as a nuff-nuff. I happen to be fairly thick skinned, particularly where the internet is concerned but I can imagine a brewer popping up and asking " how do I make xxx", being met with derision and either returning to buying megaswill or making cheaparse homebrand 'lager' with 3 kg of sugar and getting mashed every night.

We want to encourage people away from that (which is the point of your thread) but gently will be more effective than "OMG WHY MUST YOU DO THAT YOU IGNORANT PLEBIAN"?

I never thought I'd be encouraging people to be polite on the internet. Get stuffed the lot of you.

Bastards.

:lol: I like your style. Oh, and if a brewer came in and asked "how do I make xxx" (sic) I think they'd be met with some interesting responses

 

[Supra-Jim]

If being mashed, hydrometers need to be double decocted and saccharificationally rested with a pH of 4.7 for 37 minutes underneath a 6 year old wattle tree coated in naturally made Belgian Candi sugar.

I know what you're saying here manticle, but i believe this is only necessary when attempting to accurately reproduce certain commerical styles, a process known a 'cloning'

Cheers SJ

 

[Katherine]

Its just a natural thing to try to brew your favourite beer... I learnt pretty quickly dumping a whole lot of chinook pellets in to an extract boil was not going to get my LCPA. I also learnt I bloody lucky to only live around the corner from Creatures so I can go there for a beer and brew my/our beer at home. I have really enjoyed my progression (is that the right word?) in brewing and I still have so so so MUCH to learn. Ive met some great people to whom now I call my friends.

 

[muckey]

I know what you're saying here manticle, but i believe this is only necessary when attempting to accurately reproduce certain commerical styles, a process known a 'cloning'

Cheers SJ

Oh damn. I know what I've been doing wrong. I thought cloning was breaking your hydrometer in halves to make to hydrometers.

Ok back to work :blink:

 

[Supra-Jim]

Oh damn. I know what I've been doing wrong. I thought cloning was breaking your hydrometer in halves to make to hydrometers.

Ok back to work :blink:

Easy mistake to make there Muckey, just remember if you break you hydrometer in half, you'll have to remember to mutiply any gravity readings by 2 next time you use it!

Cheers SJ