Who bothers with water chemistry?

[rude]

Thanks guys, that's awesome - very good to know. I'm actually brewing a brown ale using largely distilled water - I don't quite trust the water here for some reason... - and will likely add CaCl2, CaSO4 and CaCO3. Maybe even some NaCl or sodium bicarb.

Yeah - sorry I should have clarified. I didn't add any CaCO3 to the APA, but did to a dubbel and weizenbock - both of which were ok.

I'm comfortable with the chloride/sulphate - thanks for the posts above, they are awesome - but I am curious about the chalk. Is there any function past neutralising high-roast grain bills? In porters/stouts, by extension, does it then purely come down to pH in the final beer, with respect to CaCO3? I say this because chalky water might be great for these beers, but everything tells me it will precipitate during a boil, so won't really end up in the final beer as a 'softening' agent for roasty beers. Yes or no?

You need to read Brun water it will explain it

Pale beers PH is too high

Dark beers PH is too low

Adjust the mash for the correct PH

Add the salts to the kettle for flavour

Chalk is hard to desolve so I use pickling lime instaed which has worked for me

 

[MHB]

mth, if you do a bit of reading up on the theory of predicting pH and additions of water slats the term Residual Alkalinity will come up.
This was the first fully evolved look at water chemistry, it was developed early in the 20th centaury by a German brewing researcher called Kolbach.
Anyway one of the concepts he developed was a German Degree of Hardness (odH) used to describe the amount of various salts, turns out that Pilsen Water has 1odH of most of the basic water salts. Considering when the research was done, the water was most likely what the brewery was using.
Ca - 7.1ppm
Mg - 2.4ppm
HCO3 - 14ppm
As much as I admire Joseph Groll, this is really not ideal water for making pilsner, which is in-part why they did a fairly complex triple decoction and a two hour boil, uses relatively large amounts of hops, that's what it took to make really great beer with water that is a bit too much of a blank a slate.
Mark

 

[Adr_0]

You need to read Brun water it will explain it

Pale beers PH is too high

Dark beers PH is too low

Adjust the mash for the correct PH

Add the salts to the kettle for flavour

Chalk is hard to desolve so I use pickling lime instaed which has worked for me

Yep, I get it. Thanks.

So I guess to clarify my question, is there any use for chalk or bicarbonate in the boil/for flavour with stouts/porters to soften the acidity/harshness of the roasted malts?

Not asking about late steeping of these grains, asking about bicarbonate. Understand about mash pH but more talking about the finished beer - the higher bicarbonate, of course, would mean elevated residual alkalinity - for stouts/porters. Yes, no?

 

[vittorio]

using science to brew will always make your beer better.... with hobby home brewers you dont have to unless the brew really needs it. some waters eg Melbourne is pretty sweet, just use a campden tablet to dechlorinating tap water....

 

[Adr_0]

I'm not into chalk - needs to be dissolved in acid to do much of anything and I think there are better nethods of dealing with low pH in dark beers.

Ah ok, fair enough. I can understand Ca(OH)2 will leave your pH neutralised (to the 5.2-5.6 range in the correct amount) but after a boil the pH with a darker beer is still going to be lowish - hence the question about bicarbonate to soften the beer (in mouthfeel, not removing hardness).

 

[rude]

Baking soda , chalk & pickling lime are not recommended in the sparge or the kettle when reading the Brun Water ?

 

[Jaded and Bitter]

Ah ok, fair enough. I can understand Ca(OH)2 will leave your pH neutralised (to the 5.2-5.6 range in the correct amount) but after a boil the pH with a darker beer is still going to be lowish - hence the question about bicarbonate to soften the beer (in mouthfeel, not removing hardness).

Any bicarb you add to your mash and/sparge water will be used up in developing your mash pH. The kettle boil does not precipitate out carbonates. This only works for hot liquor with a lot of dissolved chalk from carbonic acid. Boiling drives of the carbon dioxide and hence carbonic acid so the chalk precipitates out.

If the pre boil pH is out of the ideal 5.2-5.5 range at room temperature there was a problem with your mash and/or sparge pH.

But by the time its in the kettle of course its too late. So if you need to adjust with lactic acid or bicarb soda or your prefferred acid/ base.

If you havnt already done so, buy a good pH meter such as a HM Digital PH-200 (which I have) or a milwaukee MW 102. And take care of it.

Build up your water profile with salt and acid as required for the beer style from say bru'water or the water book (which I use) check mash and sparge ph at room temperature and your pre boil kettle pH should be fine.

If you want to raise a little add something like bicarb soda etc.

The kettle pH will drop during the boil.

Hope this helps

 

[Jack of all biers]

I now brew with modified water and results are good thus far but there's a good chance that is due to confirmation bias.

Any AHBers swear by (or swear against) water modification, and the extra effort it requires?

I read this thread a few days ago and thought it was covered, but just incase someone one day comes along and says, well is it confirmation bias or what.......

I did a little brew test today on an IPA. It was version 2 of a recipe I am working on and the last recipe had a pH of 5.58 (no acid or acidulated malt added to it and I got around an 80% mash eff). For shits and giggles for V2 I thought I'd add some acidulated malt and run it through Brewers friend to see what they predicted. Because of the predictions I upped my Calc. Chloride and Calc. Sulphate additions to get a mash pH around the 5.2 mark.

Recipe of V2 IPA (or now that it is done it could well be a Indian Golden Ale perhaps as it is very dark Amber in colour)
Water: Adelaide Central mains water - Alkalinity (as calcium carbonate) average: 52 mg/L; Calcium av.: 21 mg/L; Magnesium av.: 11 mg/L; Total Hardness as CaCO3 av.: 100 mg/L, Sulphate av.: 39 mg/L; Chloride av.: 92 mg/L; Sodium av.: 51 mg/L
Water additions: 8 gm Calcium Chloride, 4 gm Calcium Sulphate,(to mash only)
8 Kg Maris Otter (Bairds)
2 Kg Vienna (Gladfield)
1 Kg Golden Naked Oats (Simpsons)
0.5 Kg Dark Crystal (Gladfield)
0.3 Kg Acidulated Malt (Weyermann)
Mashed @ 70 C single infusion
100 gm Hallertau Pacific 6.1% a/a @ 90 mins
30 gm Hallertau Pacific 6.1% a/a @ 30 mins
34 gm Hallertau Pacific 6.1% a/a @ 5 mins
50L in fermenter

Based on my complete water profile and the above recipe and salt additions, Brewers Friend predicted a pH of 5.28
Predicted OG 1058 (for eff. of 80%)

Actual OG 1061 @ 50L

So the test conducted was that the grains were mashed without the salts or acidulated malt to begin with and left for 5 mins.
Initial pH was 5.47
The above salts were added and mixed and again 5 min wait.
pH was 5.33
Then the acidulated malt was added, mixed and 5 min wait
pH was 5.17

Sparge water was not adjusted with acids and was pH 6.92
End runnings were pH 5.71
Post boil pH 5.19

pH tester is accurate to 0.01, 2 point calibrated and temp. compensated. All tests done at room temp. (measured 20-24C)

I ended up with a 98.2 % efficiency(calculated by Homebrewing.com)(Brewers friend calculated 91% eff). Yes I questioned this too as I normally get 80-85%, but I can't argue with a calculator now can I. The 50L was actually 54L, but due to a new addition to the boil kettle I had a little problem and lost 4 L on the floor :unsure: when I had to tip and pour because the pick up tube got clogged up completely :huh: h34r:. Back to the drawing board on the brew kettle, but the mash efficiency and quality is what I'm talking about here :super: )

Not that I'm that scientific at all, but it does go to show that playing with water chemistry does benefit a mash (and the resultant beer).

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Anyone read Czech?
http://www.pvk.cz/res/archive/1735/175703.pdf?seek=1478266829

No, but I read chemistry.


Chloride = 21.6 mg/l

Sulphate = 46.2

Sodium = 12.4

Calcium = 40.0

pH = 7.69

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

I ended up with a 98.2 % efficiency(calculated by Homebrewing.com)(Brewers friend calculated 91% eff). Yes I questioned this too

I'd trust the Brewer's Friend calculator, its results are far closer to my manual calculations than say Beersmith is (I haven't used HB.com). Beersmith routinely put my old rig over 100% when Brewer's Friend had it at around 96%.

 

[MrTwalky]

Water chemistry is vital in my opinion. It's the only way you will be able to nail a certain style or clone. I've had some success using the Beersmith water profile calculations. Canberra has soft water which is excellent for Pilsners, and there are no chloramines that contribute a phenolic character. Just remember to treat all your brewing water, not just the mash. I've had good results.

Haven't tried it yet but I reckon chalk would dissolve under pressure. Try using a Keg King carb cap and 1L water and see what happens.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Haven't tried it yet but I reckon chalk would dissolve under pressure. Try using a Keg King carb cap and 1L water and see what happens.

It will slightly increase the solubility, from three tenths of FA to about six tenths.

Solubility of CaCO3 is a complex equilibrium

CaCO3 <-> Ca2+ + CO32-, CO32- + H+ <-> HCO3- , HCO3- + H+ <-> H2CO3 , H2CO3 <-> 2H+ +CO2(g)

Increasing the concentration of CO2 in solution shifts each of these equilibria but the equilibrium constants are small, eg KCaCO3 (the governing constant for the first equilibrium in the chain) is 10-8.3,so you can't push it very far.

 

[mtb]

Canberra has soft water which is excellent for Pilsners, and there are no chloramines that contribute a phenolic character

We have no chloramines but I'm pretty sure we have chlorine. I use campden tablets / boil my water just to be sure.

 

[Jack of all biers]

I'd trust the Brewer's Friend calculator, its results are far closer to my manual calculations than say Beersmith is (I haven't used HB.com). Beersmith routinely put my old rig over 100% when Brewer's Friend had it at around 96%.

Yes the BF is far more detailed and only a recent discovery for me. The HB.com is very basic and I've only used it a few times until the last brew. It's good to know that the BF calculator is similar to your manual calc.s. I prefer the pencil and paper and was using a manual eff. calc from Vicbrew 2002 Almanac until I found that it was way under what HB.com was giving me (like 65% as opposed to 80%). I was happy with the low efficiencies (as the beer was good), but as I was mostly using a recipe book that calc. at 80% eff. I was wondering how I kept hitting the target gravities with 65% or lower. Then the HB.com calc. was discovered and I found my eff. were around the 80-85% mark the whole time (although the BF would put me more in the 75-80% mark).

The Vicbrew calc.; % extract efficiency = Gravity x Volume / (4 x Weight of grain)
Gravity is minus 1000 or for 1048 = 48]
Volume is pre-boil in Litres
Weight is in kilograms

It was only meant as an estimation, but given how out I have found it to be it is worse than worthless as it has led to many frustrating attempts to fix a problem that did not exist. As you can see it does not take into account the individual types of grain or their individual extract efficiency.

What are your manual calc.s?

EDIT - Off topic re the eff. calc.s. Sorry, but it does go to show that by looking at water chemistry for ways to improve the brew, eff. can also be significantly improved. My normal salt additions were clearly not correct to get the right pH for pale beers and the BF calculators have set me straight.

2nd EDIT - and I forgot to put in my first post above that 3.65 ml of a 8 mg/ml Zinc sulphate solution was added to the HLT (73L), uping the Zinc content of the water from an average of 0.0046 mg/L to about 0.02 mg/L (thanks to MHB for advice). Whilst I don't expect the Zinc to have helped lift the efficiency too much, the co-enzyme should at least help the mash enzymes pump out a better quality wort (will help the yeast no end too). Also 2 mg/L Ascorbic acid added to HLT post boil to remove residual Chloramine [only to be sure] (thanks to Lyrebird and Martin Brungard for setting the record straight on the correct amounts of Ascorbic to add, (~2.5-3.5 mg/L)

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

The manual calc is simply

Efficiency = wort mass x oP / Σ (malt mass * extract FGDB * (1 - moisture))

 

[Adr_0]

Haven't tried it yet but I reckon chalk would dissolve under pressure. Try using a Keg King carb cap and 1L water and see what happens.

I'm trying to understand if there is any value in residual (bi)carbonate and alkalinity in dark roasty beers.

The key assumption here - in this question - is that enough is in the mash to balance acidic malts to an appropriate pH, then ADDITIONAL chalk is added at the end of the boil.

All the resources focus on mash pH, or purely on chloride/sulphate/sodium as flavour/texture modifiers, but none mention if chalk - or calcium hydroxide, or sodium bicarb - is something advantageous to add to dark beers to modify flavour/texture.

 

[Jack of all biers]

I ended up with a 98.2 % efficiency(calculated by Homebrewing.com)(Brewers friend calculated 91% eff). Yes I questioned this too as I normally get 80-85%, but I can't argue with a calculator now can I.

My apologies, my calc. eff, with BF was actually 97.71% not 91%. I was just data entering my brew into my log and double checked and a nice surprise came my way. So it looks like HB.com is not that far off after all. I must admit though, even though I know my measurements are accurate (hydro calibrated, volume measurements also calibrated recently) I am still skeptical of an efficiency of 97.71%. I'm wondering if the good guys at Beer Belly gave me an extra weight of grains than what I ordered as the weight of grains is the only thing I didn't check. Though they have never been wrong before and it is not in their interest to give me more than ordered, perhaps a mistake happened. Oh, well I'll never know, but will put this down to the best eff. ever had.

EDIT - :kooi: :beerbang: :super:

 

[Jack of all biers]

I'm trying to understand if there is any value in residual (bi)carbonate and alkalinity in dark roasty beers.

The key assumption here - in this question - is that enough is in the mash to balance acidic malts to an appropriate pH, then ADDITIONAL chalk is added at the end of the boil.

All the resources focus on mash pH, or purely on chloride/sulphate/sodium as flavour/texture modifiers, but none mention if chalk - or calcium hydroxide, or sodium bicarb - is something advantageous to add to dark beers to modify flavour/texture.

Adro,

I'm not an expert, but I'd confidently say that by adding calc. hydroxide at boil you would not be achieving any mouth feel or flavour benefits (unless you are lacking in Calcium, which I'd doubt). It would only increase pH that might (if you added a sh*t load) help with adding caramel flavours and colour, but then the pH would be too high (into the alkaline territory) for the yeasties to get it down to their preferred environmental pH so they would struggle (and your beer would suffer).

I would say that sodium bicarb would help with maltiness flavour perceptions because of the added sodium, but I'm not sure the bicarb would add any flavour difference.

Given your previous posts, I'm thinking you are either theorizing about a slight increase in pH in the beer having an improving effect on any dark malt harshness? or you have found something somewhere that talks about it? I would think that it probably comes to balance in the mash as opposed to adding any carbonates to the kettle to change the flavour or mouthfeel profile of dark beers. My stouts and schwarzbiers all tend to be very balanced with no harshness from the dark malt and my average water profile is posted above. I don't cold steep or add the dark grains last minute (they get 90 min mash everytime) nor have I ever added chalk etc to the mash or the boil.

Did you have a reference for your query that we can look at?

 

[manticle]

I'm trying to understand if there is any value in residual (bi)carbonate and alkalinity in dark roasty beers.

The key assumption here - in this question - is that enough is in the mash to balance acidic malts to an appropriate pH, then ADDITIONAL chalk is added at the end of the boil.

All the resources focus on mash pH, or purely on chloride/sulphate/sodium as flavour/texture modifiers, but none mention if chalk - or calcium hydroxide, or sodium bicarb - is something advantageous to add to dark beers to modify flavour/texture.

My understanding is that it is purely pH. My limited experience is that surplus carbonate or bicarbonate in beer generally tastes.. well...........................chalky.

Unpleasant and one reason I prefer other methods of pH adjustment in dark beers.
Best way to see is probably to just add a tad to a glass of stout.

 

[fungrel]

My understanding is that it is purely pH. My limited experience is that surplus carbonate or bicarbonate in beer generally tastes.. well...........................chalky.

Unpleasant and one reason I prefer other methods of pH adjustment in dark beers.
Best way to see is probably to just add a tad to a glass of stout.

It is always preferable to use water that has a higher starting pH, so all you do is add acid to bring the pH into correct range. If you start from a position where the pH is on the low side before adding salts, you will have to add more hardness in the form of carbonates to raise pH to the ideal mash range, and therefore give the beer an overly chalky taste in the process.