Who bothers with water chemistry?

[Adr_0]

Thanks Jack and manticle - that was my suspicion (that if the pH is right to start with, the problems should largely to away).

Thanks everyone for your patience.

Now to brew...

 

[Jack of all biers]

For my water here - very moderate across all minerals/ions - I ended up adding just under 12g of CaSO4 to an APA, which gave a theoretical mineral profile of:
32.0 Sodium (mg/l)
206.3 Sulfate (mg/l)
39.0 Chloride (mg/l)
130.5 Bicarbonate (mg/l)

Admittedly the base malt was 50% pils, but even with an FG of 1014 the beer was extremely dry and had quite a sharp bitterness. I initially wondered if I needed more (bi)carbonate, but my understanding of this is that:
- it wouldn't dissolve in a pale mash very well, at pH 5.4
- anything carrying over into the beer would come out of suspension

So is my answer to the above actually chloride?

No worries Adro,

Just going over your posts again, is 130.5 bicarbonate from your local water report? If so, I'd suggest you will never need to add chalk or other carbonate to get any benefits carbonates bring to a beer. It will also leave your mash pH a little high unless you use acid/acidulated malt/a reasonable amount of dark malts. You could reduce some of the bicarb by boiling your water before use and in the cooling some will precipitate out. Rack your water off to another container and then add your salts. Or you could more easily combine 50/50 distilled/rain water to your mains.

Also, regarding some of the points re adding calcium sulphate or of adding sodium chloride. As long as you are sensible with your additions of sodium chloride (don't use iodised salt as the iodine is not good for the yeast) you can add that to your boil also to add sodium and chloride, but your sodium is already reasonable at 32 mg/L. This is also a reason, I wouldn't add sodium bicarb to your water (two reasons really, as both your sodium and bicarb are at more than high enough levels for a good malty dark beer).

What is your calcium content of your water? If high and you don't want to add more by way of Calcium sulphate, but still want to up your sulphate level, you can add Magnesium sulphate to your boil, though 10-30 mg/L is the range you want for Magnesium and getting beyond that can have consequences for the Calcium content and therefore the yeast. So check your Magnesium content of your water before going crazy with that.

My advice, to get your dark or pale beers more balanced, is to get onto Brewers Friend or Bru'n water online and do some experimenting with the recipes where you have found the beer to have ended up harsh/not to taste. Put your water profile in and go from there. By changing the ingredients online you can see what effect it will have on the pH and different flavour ion ratios. You will therefore be able to change the flavour profiles of your beers all without having to brew a single drop. When you do brew, you will then can be confident the resulting beer will be how you planned it. If it's then not to taste, you will know that you may not like chloride forward/low pH etc profiles.

 

[Jaded and Bitter]

No worries Adro,

Just going over your posts again, is 130.5 bicarbonate from your local water report? If so, I'd suggest you will never need to add chalk or other carbonate to get any benefits carbonates bring to a beer. It will also leave your mash pH a little high unless you use acid/acidulated malt/a reasonable amount of dark malts. You could reduce some of the bicarb by boiling your water before use and in the cooling some will precipitate out. Rack your water off to another container and then add your salts. Or you could more easily combine 50/50 distilled/rain water to your mains.

Also, regarding some of the points re adding calcium sulphate or of adding sodium chloride. As long as you are sensible with your additions of sodium chloride (don't use iodised salt as the iodine is not good for the yeast) you can add that to your boil also to add sodium and chloride, but your sodium is already reasonable at 32 mg/L. This is also a reason, I wouldn't add sodium bicarb to your water (two reasons really, as both your sodium and bicarb are at more than high enough levels for a good malty dark beer).

What is your calcium content of your water? If high and you don't want to add more by way of Calcium sulphate, but still want to up your sulphate level, you can add Magnesium sulphate to your boil, though 10-30 mg/L is the range you want for Magnesium and getting beyond that can have consequences for the Calcium content and therefore the yeast. So check your Magnesium content of your water before going crazy with that.

My advice, to get your dark or pale beers more balanced, is to get onto Brewers Friend or Bru'n water online and do some experimenting with the recipes where you have found the beer to have ended up harsh/not to taste. Put your water profile in and go from there. By changing the ingredients online you can see what effect it will have on the pH and different flavour ion ratios. You will therefore be able to change the flavour profiles of your beers all without having to brew a single drop. When you do brew, you will then can be confident the resulting beer will be how you planned it. If it's then not to taste, you will know that you may not like chloride forward/low pH etc profiles.

Yeah I didnt see that, 130.5 bicarbonate is high.

Adro whats your Calcium and Magnesium?

And whats your Residual Alkalinity (RA)?

I agree with Jack, unless your calcium and magnesium are high (which I doubt from your sulphate and chloride numbers) you probably never need to worry about adding more bicarbonate, and actually may be in fact at too high a pH, hence the harsh flavour (from tannin extraction from the grain in the mash and sparge, and harsh bitterness from boiling hops at a high pH).

I think you may have this *** about.

Whats you calcium and magnesium and well try and start from there.

 

[manticle]

Carnonate/bicarbonate won't help pale beer. If anything, I'd look at reducing what you already have.

Just want to point out that I made this post a few days ago, pointing out a reduction, rather than an increase in bicarbonate levels might be more appropriate.

Pointing it out because we all need a pat on the head sometimes, even if it comes from within.

 

[mtb]

What I really need to know is, should I be increasing my carbonates? Why hasn't anyone answered this?

 

[MHB]

No you shouldn't.
Personally I cant see how anyone would ever need to unless they were brewing a stout with exceptionally high amounts of Dark/Roast grain (say >20%)
Mind you Shaun Sherlock who makes Stout as well or better than anyone else I know loves Chalk - so I might be totally wrong.
Mark

 

[Jack of all biers]

Just want to point out that I made this post a few days ago, pointing out a reduction, rather than an increase in bicarbonate levels might be more appropriate.

Pointing it out because we all need a pat on the head sometimes, even if it comes from within.

A belated well done you. B) I think we can put the missing of your comment to 'the trees from the forest' effect.

 

[Jack of all biers]

What I really need to know is, should I be increasing my carbonates? Why hasn't anyone answered this?

Not sure if you are joking, but the simple answer is, what are your carbonate levels to begin with? (if you have posted this in one of the earlier 4 pages I apologise)

 

[mtb]

I was trying to agitate manticle :lol:

 

[manticle]

The two spambots I just banned agitate me more.

 

[Jack of all biers]

I thought it seemed a bridge too far , but you capital city folk are different :icon_drool2: ..... Nah just joking ..... or am I :huh:

 

[Jaded and Bitter]

I thought it seemed a bridge too far , but you capital city folk are different :icon_drool2: ..... Nah just joking ..... or am I :huh:

Your from Adelaide, your special Jack...

 

[Jaded and Bitter]

 

[Meddo]

I'd trust the Brewer's Friend calculator, its results are far closer to my manual calculations than say Beersmith is (I haven't used HB.com). Beersmith routinely put my old rig over 100% when Brewer's Friend had it at around 96%.

I've been getting a lot of errors in calculations from the BF recipe builder and brew sessions, I'd recommend sanity-checking everything before trusting it (sounds like you're already reconciling but others may not be). I don't want to derail the thread so I won't expand more here but users should be a bit careful and check against first principles if unsure.

 

[Mattress]

Water chemistry is vital in my opinion. It's the only way you will be able to nail a certain style or clone.

But some of us are just brewing beer because we enjoy it.

 

[razz]

Just got the full version of Brunwater to use. Got it setup and look forward to my next brew, it took a bit of fiddling with the data but now that is done I can save the settings. easy peasy.

 

[fungrel]

But some of us are just brewing beer because we enjoy it.

Everyone is different. Some prefer not to get so involved in the the science and that's okay by me. I'm one of those that believe water chemistry is extremely important if you want to make the best beer you can, but if you are into the hobby for different reasons, then all good too.

 

[Jaded and Bitter]

Everyone is different. Some prefer not to get so involved in the the science and that's okay by me. I'm one of those that believe water chemistry is extremely important if you want to make the best beer you can, but if you are into the hobby for different reasons, then all good too.

It does help improve your beer = improve enjoyment

Thats why I do it.

 

[TimT]

I need to get into this too. I will try and read the 'Water' book sometime, but is there a handy-dandy link online relevant to Melbourne water sources and the brewing salts that should be added? It would be an excellent guide for my brewing next year.

 

[mtb]

I need to get into this too. I will try and read the 'Water' book sometime, but is there a handy-dandy link online relevant to Melbourne water sources and the brewing salts that should be added? It would be an excellent guide for my brewing next year.

Google is your friend. https://www.melbournewater.com.au/waterdata/drinkingwaterqualitydata/pages/drinking-water-quality.aspx
Plug in your water profile to Bru'n Water (Google that too) and you can use the tool to build yourself a water profile, including specific additions of minerals to modify your strike water, that matches the beer you're brewing. Use acids etc also, to get to the necessary pH, if need be.