Whirlpool Vessel: Angle Of The Dangle?

[donburke]

That tube is two different lengths so you can swap it around to suit a vessel of different size if required Don, further into a larger vessel, closer to the side for a smaller one.

i have the inlet at the 60L mark of a 98L pot, parallel to the horizontal, and it works a dream,

my fixed coil must a have positive effect on the whirlpool, the trub gathers very neatly beneath the coil, even with 1/2kg of hops in there !!!

the coil has 5mm gaps between turns and sits 40mm above the base of the pot

i'll take a photo of the trub next brew, but this is how i have it configured

 

[yardy]

nice setup don :icon_cheers:

 

[Tony]

This is not a conical, it's a 90L stock pot. I had a brief look at the whirlpool at Murray's, and it has a reasonably flat bottom, so I figured on the HB scale of things the stock pot would be fine. I plan on having a take off point at the very bottom, fitted with a three piece valve, for draining.

I remember you and I wandering off to eye spy it! The simplicity of it was amazing!

I think he said he draws clear wort from the vessel while its spinning.

I have a 90 liter pot i bought to make a kettle but i have been thinking exactly what your thinking mate. Boil, pump to wirlpool and recirc and run the super clear wort through a plate chiller.

Keep any pics coming mate.... im with ya on this one!

 

[adryargument]

This whirlpool fitting is also not designed to be used with a 90 degree fitting, and doing so will reduce the velocity of the liquid entering the vessel to the point that the whirlpool is not effective. It is specifically designed to extend into the kettle to where the liquid will ALWAYS be travelling at a slower velocity than it does closer to the vessel wall, so the liquid entering always has something to 'push' to increase the whirlpool velocity. The max velocity of the whirlpool will only ever match the velocity of the liquid exiting the whirlpool tube, so if it is positioned too close to the wall of the vessel, it limits the potential speed and therefore overall effectiveness of the whirlpool.

Cheers for the heads up, i will swap it around and give it a test this weekend :icon_cheers:
I did double my whirlpool effect by angling it down, hopefully i can triple it with your tried-and-tested method.

 

[domonsura]

Cheers for the heads up, i will swap it around and give it a test this weekend :icon_cheers:
I did double my whirlpool effect by angling it down, hopefully i can triple it with your tried-and-tested method.

I don't know that you'd notice any other effect other than perhaps a more 'together' trub cone - there's a limit to what you can achieve with an inanimate tube sticking into the side of a pot It's the angle either way that does it because it causes more resistance against the incoming liquid, if you have it dead flat or not 'vertically angled' the whirlpool is dismal to be sure. So you get a good whirlpool action with it pointed either way, up or down (to a point), but I noted a more spread trub cone with it down than I did up. (To be honest when I started I thought it would be the opposite - I thought the current would 'sweep' debris back off the floor and back into suspension but it wasn't the case). Too close to the floor and it stirs everything up and achieves nothing. I spent two weeks testing different positions and angles with water in a 98L pot, squeezing dye into different positions to observe the currents and watching what happened to bits of debris of different size while the whirlpool was running - also experimenting with different sized tubes and tapers, and also the shape of the outlet can make a difference creating eddies and whorls. Think 'cause and effect'. The biggest conclusion I came to is that it's not worth over-analysing beyond the point at which it is doing the job effectively for the individual brewer, so I'd have to say if your way is working for you, keep doing it that way

i have the inlet at the 60L mark of a 98L pot, parallel to the horizontal, and it works a dream,

my fixed coil must a have positive effect on the whirlpool, the trub gathers very neatly beneath the coil, even with 1/2kg of hops in there !!!

the coil has 5mm gaps between turns and sits 40mm above the base of the pot

i'll take a photo of the trub next brew, but this is how i have it configured

View attachment 47062

That fixed coil is neatly done, I would imagine it would do a really nice job of slowing things down in the centre, everything would just drop down ...very cool! :icon_cheers:

ps. sorry about double posting, I never could figure out how to quote more than one post into a reply... <_<

 

[balconybrewer]

hi domo,

do you still custom bend inlet tubes for kettle whirlpooling?

cheers

 

[sim]

This whirlpool fitting is also not designed to be used with a 90 degree fitting, and doing so will reduce the velocity of the liquid entering the vessel to the point that the whirlpool is not effective.

Hey Domonsura,

so, to avoid slowing the liquid down the outlet pickup must be straight or matching 45 degrees (like the WP inlet piece). is the HopScreen s-bend tube fine because it bends 90 degrees but bends back 90 degrees (and balances out)?

Do you think a T-piece outlet (imagine 2 hop screens) will also reduce the flow speed, or behave the same as a straight outlet :ie 2 pickups at half speed = full speed.

hope that all makes sense. im redesigning my boiler pickup. i whirlpool with a pump at the moment, and currently have an sharp elbow compression style pickup - which i suspect is the culprit for a few of my pumping/whirlpooling problems.

Cheers,
sim

 

[sim]

Bump, Anyone? i might have confused the thought...


sim

 

[pk.sax]

Sim, simple physics says if you make something change direction 90 degrees, it loses all it's momentum in that direction and must be accelerated to move in the new direction. Basically, all the velocity of the liquid is lost as soon as you make a 90 degree bend and then it is dependant on the power of your pump to recover from that. Some of this can be recovered if the inside of the bend has false angled surfaces, using newtons third law. I doubt that is the case with normal elbow/T bends.

 

[squirt in the turns]

I'm resurrecting this thread after starting one earlier about my whirlpool woes. domonsura and others have suggested that the distance that the return nozzle sticks out into the pot is important, but I can't see any guidance about exactly how long it should be. I can see that donburke went with the short end in the compression fitting in the end, and that's in a 98L vessel. Mine's a 70 L, but is as wide as it is tall. Not sure if/how that affects things.

In the spirit of schooey's original diagram:


I'm talking about the distance x. Is there a rough mathematical correlation between the pot diameter (in this case, 450mm) and x? Also, is the angle Θ affected by x, or is it always 30?

My return tube will most likely be made of a short bit of soft annealed copper, so will be curved instead of the straight-bent-straight model Beerbelly supply (unless I try to straighten it a bit). I'm assuming this will be fine as long as the wort exits the tube at the correct angle? Although it probably makes any answers to my above questions harder to implement.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Angle of attack is 17 degrees and speed should be 5m/per sec as it leaves the nozzle.
I cant work it out for you but this is the standard, less crap in the kettle the better.
Nev

 

[squirt in the turns]

Angle of attack is 17 degrees and speed should be 5m/per sec as it leaves the nozzle.
I cant work it out for you but this is the standard, less crap in the kettle the better.
Nev

Thanks Nev. Not asking anyone to do the maths for me, just wondering if there's a resource someone can point me to to work it out myself, or give me a ballpark guesstimate based on their own experiences.

When you say less crap in the kettle is better, do you mean less bulk in terms of fittings and stuff sticking out into it, or less trub?

 

[Helles]

Hop socks youll have half the trub
And about the same bitterness and flavour from hops

 

[Cocko]

Wow,

Its always the way around here, a very timely bump on such a topic.

Am about to drill my [expensive] kettle and add a whirlpool tap and inlet....

Would love to hear from members using an input whirlpool in to their kettle? :unsure:

Is it worth it? Does it work?

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Thanks Nev. Not asking anyone to do the maths for me, just wondering if there's a resource someone can point me to to work it out myself, or give me a ballpark guesstimate based on their own experiences.

When you say less crap in the kettle is better, do you mean less bulk in terms of fittings and stuff sticking out into it, or less trub?

Less fittings, The stuff i quote with out the quote marks is from KUNZE Technology of brewing and malting, great book, I hear there is a torrent out there.
Do the right thing and buy the book I did.
Nev

 

[donburke]

Wow,

Its always the way around here, a very timely bump on such a topic.

Am about to drill my [expensive] kettle and add a whirlpool tap and inlet....

Would love to hear from members using an input whirlpool in to their kettle? :unsure:

Is it worth it? Does it work?

yes it does work, but so too does 15 seconds with a spoon

i only see benefit in doing this if you are chilling with an immersion chiller, where it would be a down right pain in the arse to keep stirring your wort during the chilling process

 

[Cocko]

yes it does work, but so too does 15 seconds with a spoon

i only see benefit in doing this if you are chilling with an immersion chiller, where it would be a down right pain in the arse to keep stirring your wort during the chilling process

Legend, cheers. Makes perfect sense.

Along that line tho, if NC'ing wouldn't recirculating to whirlpool also add to cooling the finished wort due to it being pumped out through external hoses etc?

Even though it will end up in a cube? The reduction in temp is more rapid.

I am thinking enough to stop hop utulisation but still hot enough to be able to take advantage of the cubing/no chill process?

Thoughts?

 

[donburke]

Legend, cheers. Makes perfect sense.

Along that line tho, if NC'ing wouldn't recirculating to whirlpool also add to cooling the finished wort due to it being pumped out through external hoses etc?

Even though it will end up in a cube? The reduction in temp is more rapid.

I am thinking enough to stop hop utulisation but still hot enough to be able to take advantage of the cubing/no chill process?

Thoughts?

sure you'd have some heat transfer through the pump/hose, but quite frankly, its bugger all

if i no chill, i run the pump for 5 minutes after switching the flame out, then switch the pump off and rest another 5 minutes, temp is still only just below 100, maybe 98 or 97

i believe you get around half the utilisation at 90 degrees and then half again at 80 degrees

 

[Cocko]

sure you'd have some heat transfer through the pump/hose, but quite frankly, its bugger all

if i no chill, i run the pump for 5 minutes after switching the flame out, then switch the pump off and rest another 5 minutes, temp is still only just below 100, maybe 98 or 97

i believe you get around half the utilisation at 90 degrees and then half again at 80 degrees

Ok, so if you decide to no chill a batch, do you still run a whirlpool through your pump and kettle or use a spoon?

 

[donburke]

Ok, so if you decide to no chill a batch, do you still run a whirlpool through your pump and kettle or use a spoon?

funny you should ask, i sometimes do, othertimes i use my kettle as a hlt and my hlt becomes my kettle and i use a spoon (fixed coil in the kettle doesnt let me use a spoon)