When is the best time to adjust the pH of the mash

[slash22000]

Man your water is crazy. 140 calcium and 140 sulfate? I think Satan might be pissing in your water supply.

If you can't afford a RO system you can always dilute your tap water with some distilled or mineral water from the shops to try and get it under control.

 

[billygoat]

Man your water is crazy. 140 calcium and 140 sulfate? I think Satan might be pissing in your water supply.

Slash, have a look at his location, he is in the UK.
Plenty of people in the UK get their water supply from aquafiers, thus plenty of hardness, calcium, etc.

 

[Ckilner]

What comes out of a RO system? At the moment using tap water I have the water company to analyse it so even if I don't like it much I at least have a good idea what's in it. If I put it through a RO system will I know what I have and therefore know what to add to make it good brew water?

 

[Dunkelbrau]

The reverse osmosis membrane filters out between 90-99.99% of minerals, I guess it starts at 99.99 and goes down over time prior to changing the membrane.

It will from my recent reading (since I posted in this thread) remove most of the "impurities" however it means you start from a blank slate.. Like a blank canvas, you have to add your own colour.

This can be good, if you have terrible brewing water, but it is not as necessary if you have decent water. I guess we are lucky in Australia, it can taste like the swimming pool sometimes in my area though haha

 

[Ckilner]

Do you reckon my water is bad enough? We've got a lot of micro breweries in the area and I can't imagine they'll be using an RO system. We'll all be getting the water from the same reservoir so maybe I just need to be clever with the adjustments rather than scrubbing it clean and starting from scratch?

 

[BeerNess]

Do you reckon my water is bad enough? We've got a lot of micro breweries in the area and I can't imagine they'll be using an RO system. We'll all be getting the water from the same reservoir so maybe I just need to be clever with the adjustments rather than scrubbing it clean and starting from scratch?

Why not drop in or email some of your local micros and ask what they do? What's good for goose and gander and so on worst case they're insecure enough to not share their 'wisdom' , best case they're helpful and informative - maybe even open up a handy dialogue for future questions and stuff, maybe even some yeasts ;-)

 

[manticle]

Undoubtedly any microbrewery worth its salt (ha salt) will be doing something.

Try the other methods of dropping out carbonates and chlorine and acidifying the mash first. If that doesn't work look at RO.

And yes - talk to the commercial brewers and see what they do and compare that with how you rate their beers.

 

[Ckilner]

If I could brew a beer anywhere near as good as Oakham Ales I'd be a happy chappy.
I've ordered some Acid malt today so I'll make my first venture into adjusting water and pH later this week.

One other question: My water quality report says the water has hardness of 152.8 mg/l Ca. EZ Water calculator asks for Bicarbonate (HC03) or Alkalinity (CaCO3) and Beersmith wants HCO3
What is my 152.8 mg/l Ca ? Any one of those?

 

[manticle]

Calcium hardness is permanent hardness which cannot be removed by boiling. It makes the water slightly acidic and is actually good for brewing if not stupidly high.

Bicarbonate hardness (expressed as alkalinity/CaCO3) is temporary hardness which can be removed by boiling and is generally undesirable.

If your hardness is calcium/permanent, that is probably OK depending on level. Slightly permanently hard water is good, stupidly high is not. Bicarbonate is the devil though.
To answer the question - no, neither of those.

Ask the water company for alkalinity expressed as CaCO3

 

[mabrungard]

Calcium hardness is the hardness due to the concentration of calcium in the water. It can consist of both temporary and permanent hardness components. Calcium hardness (as CaCO3) is equal to the calcium concentration (mg/L) times 2.5. In the case of the 152.8 ppm hardness in message #48, that may indicate a calcium concentration of 61 ppm.

I've not really heard of bicarbonate hardness, but its usually termed temporary hardness. That is typically the concentrations of calcium and magnesium that are paired with carbonate ions (aka: carbonic acid, bicarbonate, and carbonate). Temporary hardness (as CaCO3) is often equal to the water alkalinity value (as CaCO3), but not always. If the water contains high sodium or potassium and low calcium and magnesium, then its possible that temporary hardness is not equal to alkalinity (its rare in potable waters).

 

[Ckilner]

Just found the CaCO3 figure for my water. 382mg/l
Looks high to me.

 

[Rocker1986]

I've just been googling around trying to find a current Brisbane water report, so far with no luck. Is there anywhere on the web where these can be found? I put in some figures from one I found from 2009 or something in to that EZ water thingy and a basic grain bill I normally would use and it predicts the pH around 5.7. Is that really anything to worry about?

 

[Dunkelbrau]

I've just been googling around trying to find a current Brisbane water report, so far with no luck. Is there anywhere on the web where these can be found? I put in some figures from one I found from 2009 or something in to that EZ water thingy and a basic grain bill I normally would use and it predicts the pH around 5.7. Is that really anything to worry about?

After reading info posted by some members and also some other research, its about so much more than just the PH.. so much that i think i'm going to take it super slow and focus on getting my beers better with my processes first.

I think i should link this video of Palmer talking about water.. in particular, Reserve Alkalinity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJj__jEkFUE

 

[manticle]

5.7 is at the very high end of the scale if measured at room temp and too high if measured at mash temp. Ez should hopefully be calculated at room temp.
IF you were making a dextrinous wort (higher mash temp, less fermentable wort) the alpha- enzymatic activity would be favoured but for most beers it's pushing it. Add to that inaccuracy of measuring equipment plus user error and you are giving yourself a very small window.

 

[Ckilner]

If my CaCO3 is 382 as I believe it is then EZ calculator puts my mash Ph at 6.8. I've added 100g of acid malt but that still doesn't bring it low enough. I see from EZ that lactic acid can be added too but how much can I add without affecting the flavour of the beer. Is gypsum an option too?

 

[manticle]

You want to look at dropping that bicarbonate out if you can. Just adjusting pH won't be enough. At the very most you might get away with a really dry low hopped stout.

 

[Ckilner]

From your earlier posting manticle, I drop the bicarbonate out by boiling? So if I need a 25l mash then I boil the lot and then let it cool and carry on as normal and make other adjustments. Having boiled it, how will I know how much bicarbonate remains?

 

[manticle]

My understanding is that a 10-15 min boil should remove 80-90 % of bicarbonate.
Try it with a saucepan full first and see if you can see visible precipitate.

 

[Ckilner]

You're probably about right. My stainless steel pans need a good clean after boiling water. So if the CaCO3 is 382 then after 15 min boil I should be down to about 80 or less. I've been watching Palmers RA video that was in an earlier post where he talks about Residual Alkalinity. Where he says that RA = alkalinity - (Ca/3.5 + Mg/7) I assume Alkalinity is the CaCO3 value?

 

[Rocker1986]

5.7 is at the very high end of the scale if measured at room temp and too high if measured at mash temp. Ez should hopefully be calculated at room temp.
IF you were making a dextrinous wort (higher mash temp, less fermentable wort) the alpha- enzymatic activity would be favoured but for most beers it's pushing it. Add to that inaccuracy of measuring equipment plus user error and you are giving yourself a very small window.

Thanks mate. Yeah it was calculating it at room temp on EZ. I'm more than satisfied with the beers I'm turning out so I guess it can't be too bad. The water may well have changed slightly since that old report, hence why I've been trying to find a new one, no real luck so far though.