What Style Of Mashing Yields The Highest Efficiency?

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Kingbrownbrewing

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Guys I have been playing around with my efficiency and ways to increase it, and was just wondering if anyone has found that a different style of mashing improves their efficiency.

Currently I fly sparge, would batch sparging improve my efficiency?

I use a 3V standard system (keggles for mash tun, HLT), what efficiency do people with similar setups get?

Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks guys
 
I think you'd find fly sparging will give you better efficiency than batch sparging (debatable though!), however it does require your mash tun geometry and manifold/false bottom to be correct for your vessel. This is why I batch sparge, for a small hit in efficiency I don't have to bugger about with the correct mash tun dimensions etc.

I use a converted keggle as my MLT, with a 9" false bottom. I average between 75% and 85% efficiency depending on grain bill.

Biggest improvement i've found in terms of efficiency was my crush. I've taken to milling slightly wider than previous (about .9mm I believe) and doing a double crush.

Cheers
 
Fly should give you a higher efficiency - users usually report 80-90%

Batch will decrease your efficiency with most reporting any where from 60-80%

I batch and usually work with a 75% efficiency in my calcs - but haven't measured for a long time

Cheers
 
I recently changed from batch to fly and have gone from ~70% to 80%.
 
Recirculate. I'm working on my 2nd HERMS system and for a "normal" batch (1.050ish OG), I consistently got >85% with my old HERMS system. I believe that the efficiency of a RIMS is similar.
 
Hmmm lots of things to consider.

At the moment I:

1. mill at 0.4mm (no stuck sparge) should I increase this?
2. Add water to my grain, not grain to water, should I be changing this?
3. Mash for 60 mins, then mash out. Should I mash for longer?
3. My herms is almost ready, need a couple of parts of CB that are on back order and im sorted (this should increase my efficiency by a couple of points)


Can you explain the triple decoction further?

thanks heaps for the info guys, and keep it coming.
 
Oh yeah, I'm HERMS as well, I add the water to the grain (underletting) and I always mash for 90 mins. This alone increased my efficiency, but I think the constant recirculation of the HERMS helps for sure.


Cheers
 
Hmmm lots of things to consider.

At the moment I:

1. mill at 0.4mm (no stuck sparge) should I increase this?
2. Add water to my grain, not grain to water, should I be changing this?
3. Mash for 60 mins, then mash out. Should I mash for longer?
3. My herms is almost ready, need a couple of parts of CB that are on back order and im sorted (this should increase my efficiency by a couple of points)


Can you explain the triple decoction further?

thanks heaps for the info guys, and keep it coming.

1. Depends on your mill. What does the crush tell you? Do you have a considerable amount of flour in the crush and are the husks torn into many small pieces? =gap may be too small. Ideally you'd want the husks relatively complete, not torn into bits. The grain component within the husks only need to be split instead of milled to flour. I find too much flower leads to more precipitate in the wort/boil and a much greater volume of trub.
2. Under letting may not be for everybody. I find that I have to either (1) dump a heap of hot water into the keg mash tun to pre-warm it and then drain it or (2) add grain to most of the water that is in the tun, stir and add then rest of the water and stir again. Why? I have problems hitting the strike temperature unless the tun is pre-warmed. The other option is to go 10-15oC above 'predicted' water temp but I am not sure about this because it means the grain is getting hit with water that can be high in the high 80's-low90's temp (i.e. if I want a mash at 68oC, Beersmith would say add water at 78oC to grain but in reality I have to add it at 88oC). I've tried that and it gave me the heebee geebees.
3. Most well modified modern malts... blah blah blah
4. Yes I believe herms and in particular the recirculation will improve your efficiency. Recirc through the grainbed (for a longer period than you would normally do so) will clean up the wort considerably too.

Triple decoction:
some say it's a myth and not worth the effort and some swear by it. Generally associated with a step mash regime and I guess the inference is that this would be more efficient than a single step mash? There are a number of ways to do it but it is relatively easy to do. Mash in, remove some of the wet grain (with a small amount of wort) into a separate pot. Bring grain to boil, stirring vigorously to stop burning, add back to main mash at predetermined time to raise main mash temp to a desired level. Remove more wet grain from the mash, repeat process. Third decoction is often pulling some liquid from the mash (not wet grain this time) and boiling it until it reduces and adding back to the mash to increase colour and melanoidins and/or to hit your mash out temps. At any rate it will darken the wort and may not be suitable for lighter coloured beers.
How much wet grain you remove, how long you boil it for and when you put it back into the mash are not random numbers - you're best with some form of calculations or brewing software to inform you of these values. You will require a particular amount at a particular temp to raise X Litres of mash to Y Temp. I have done it a few times and thought it was a bit of fun but certainly wouldn't do it often.
 
Does anyone add enzymes during the mash to increase efficiency?
Seems to me that if everything else is done right they would be the weakest link in the process??

If you have lots of specialty grains you may also be stretching the job for the enzymes found in the base malt.

No doubt that seasonal differences could vary for enzyme activity in base malts as well

Apologies for heading off topic (slightly relevent)
 
Can you explain the triple decoction further?

Have a read of this.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Decoction_mash

The main reason decoction mashing increases efficiency is that boiling the grain releases starches - plenty of enzymes are left behind in the mash that's not being boiled - and the thick grainy boilup is being smashed by the heat and the stirring, so when you return it to the mash (for the second ramp up in temp) it's got its gear off and is ready to go!

Also, by starting your mash down in the 40s or 50s, the enzymes have had lots of time to get into the mash solution.

So in a nutshell ... more available enzymes; more available starches; more time; more appropriate temperatures at each temp step; and a violent mashout. When you test the SG after a decoction mash you go, "WTF?!" I've had a couple where I simply didn't believe the hydrometer. 90-100% efficiency.

More (much, much more) dicking around! I think I'm not alone when I say that while the occasional decoction mash is fun, it ain't the kinda thing you want to be doing every brew.

IMO, the best way to get higher "efficiency" from a system is to buy cheaper grain and fageddaboudit. Unless you have woeful efficiency - but that's a beginner thing 9/10.
 
Thanks guys for the wealth of information.

I was under the impression that a finer mill gave a better efficiency. I will dial this back to 0.9mm like most people use and see if it helps.

The husks are not being ripped apart, as I have a MM3, but it definitely turns the rest to powder.

I think the decoction would be something I could try once I have the HERMS going, but sounds very complicated.

I also agree that I NEVER mash in at the temps that Beersmith 2 tells me, I always add 5 degrees (and even then I am sometimes still off the mark).

Should I be worried about the PH of the mash (something I have never done)?

@Malted - So should I add the grain to the water or not.... It is something that I saw EVERYONE doing at the BABBs system wars, and it got me thinking; you can stir the mash a lot better and make sure that it is all nicely soaked.

Thank for all the help so far.
 
I know a lot of people have said that Fly gives you better results than Batch sparging.
This is certainly true in larger breweries, however in a small scale system it is debatable.

Personally i went from 75% efficiency fly sparging to 85% using a 3 step batch sparge.
So, i say test it out and see what happens!
 
If you want to improve your efficiency its worthwhile working out where you're losing efficiency

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?t...ouse_Efficiency

Aim for 97-100% conversion efficiency, then get your lauter efficiency up...

That will get you 85%+ into your boiler

After that, minimize your trub losses and you will maximize your brewhouse (into fermenter) efficiency
 
If you want to improve your efficiency its worthwhile working out where you're losing efficiency

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?t...ouse_Efficiency

Aim for 97-100% conversion efficiency, then get your lauter efficiency up...

That will get you 85%+ into your boiler

After that, minimize your trub losses and you will maximize your brewhouse (into fermenter) efficiency

And this spreadsheet is fantastic

http://braukaiser.com/documents/efficiency_calculator.xls
 
yes definitely concern yourself with mash ph. Very important for getting the most out of your grainbill. Again check out the Braukaiser site for some brilliant info

Mash PH control

Edit: Another handy piece of software is the http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/. Gives you a good understanding of how additions affect your mash.

Read in conjunction with BABBs nomograph and Brisbane Water Profile you'll be able to tweak things as required and get your efficiency and consistency worked out.

edit: Adding grain to water. Below is some advice i got from a very experienced fly sparger. I now always do this;

Add strike water to tun, cover and wait for 5 min
Add 1/3 grist give a few turns (don't stir) with your mash paddle.
Add 1/3 grist and another few turn.
Add last 1/3 grist and again a few turns. Resist stirring. Don't be too concerned with mash temp as the temp can vary in different spots and depths in the mash.
Stir again (only a few turns) after adding mash out water, no more stirring, unless batch sparging, stir after adding sparge water.

the reason for the above is this;

I get higher efficiency by not stirring flour into suspension, if I do it settles over the grist like mud and the wort doesn't drain down through the grist but down around the sides reducing efficiency. I also drain at only .5L min for best efficiency.

My efficiency (pre-boil) is around 85% double batch sparging 43L batches in a 50L keggle tun with 2mm perf false bottom, regardless of amount of grain... (e.g. done 7kg all the way to 16kg always get same numbers)
 
Great link, and spreadsheet.

The Understanding Efficiency page has a lot of info. There will be an exam. :eek:

The Mash Out info suggests 70-75C is the target, above 80C denatures alpha amylase - which makes me wonder about mash out and getting the temp just right.
I've always aimed for 76C, as I thought it was just a given that is the perfect mash out temp?

The relatively low mash thickness quoted as showing good attenuation is great (5l/kg) - I use 4l/kg in my HERMS, as it just hits the sweet spot with recirculation.

Number of run-offs - suggests keeping it low, 3 at most. I've been lazy and just been doing one. might be worth the trouble making it 2 (batch) sparges.

Any sydney metro brewers know if pH is an issue out this way? have never checked it to date.

I'm going to punch the numbers into that spreadsheet - when I can summon the energy - would love to know my efficiency - have been too lazy to date - could really use an assistant brewer here - no responses to my ad in Intern Monthly yet.
 
@Malted - So should I add the grain to the water or not....

I think Argon's post #17 sounds rather convincing.
I was not trying to say which way is best; It is what is best for you and your equipment or preference. Some folks claim there is less dough balling in the mash if they under let the hot liquor into the mash grains. I guess you'd need a bottom draining mash tun for this to work best. I have not done it myself. Seems like dough balls are not an issue if you dough in at temps under starch gelatinisation. The method clearly outlined by Argon's adviser doesn't look like it would form dough balls. For me there are more benefits in adding the water (or part of it) and then the grain.

Argon also makes a very good point as to why flower (too fine a grind) in the mash is undesirable.
 
A great way to prevent doughballs is to dough in at below the gelatinisation temperature of barleyz, which is in the late 50s IIRC. There are no doughballs because the starches just make the mash go all cloudy.

Dough in with enough strike water to give you a 55C mash, then in 5 minutes (when all the enzymes are out of the grain and it's flowling smooth) add boiling water while stirring to bring it up to your sacc rest. If your dough in temp is 55C then it only takes a few liters (couple of coffee kettle fulls) to get it up to 65C with a single (23L) batch.

I do this all the time now - especially with low temp (62C) mashes. Aids head retention as well as upping efficiency.
 

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