What Makes Megaswill Just So Crap?

[ibast]

If they were to start brewing beers to a similar standard as to the Euro lagers/Pilsners etc. then it would cost as much (or more) to produce than the imported megaswill (better grain bill, imported hops, water treatement, cold fermentation, extended lagering, etc. etc.), and would consequently not sell. There would be no "premium imported" label, and therefore impossible to sell at the inflated price. Unfortunately we're stuck with the substandard quality they churn out in order to maximise turnover, and therefor profit.

Like you, I wish it could change overnight, but I don't think this is ever likely to happen.

It's a sad state of affairs, and there is truth in what you say. But premium beers are not that much dearer these days and some of those are being imported.

So the price difference is not as great as it used to be. Even if they weren't to change over night it would be nice to see them moving in the right direction.

 

[justsomeguy]

The thread is not "why is megaswill good?" but "why is it crap". My answer is "Australian megswill beers are not balanced".

This is a circular argument. The "Australian style" is crap because it uses poorly grown POR. To stop making crap beer you stop making the "Australian style". Get rid of the crap imputs and the result is the new"Australian Style"

I'd hazard a guess that there would be a few POR hop growers out there who do not think they are poor growers of hops. I'd also doubt that the grain and adjunct growers are sending crap produce to the breweries either. Quality control at the breweries would, I expect, be quite high in this respect. If the quality of the inputs varied too much then the brewery would have to do a lot of blending/modifications to be able to produce a consistent product, which is what the customer wants in the end.

For a lot of customers they want a consistent product, regardless of where they purchase it. This is one of the reasons that fast food outlets such as McDonalds, KFC and Hungry Jacks are so successful. Their product may not taste the best but the customer knows that whereever they are, the product will taste the same.

As an example, when I was travelling overseas on business a lot, I'd sometimes stop at a McDonalds for food. Not because I like the stuff, mind you, but because I wanted to eat something without having to worry too m uch about what it was going to taste like.

gary

 

[Julez]

I'd hazard a guess that there would be a few POR hop growers out there who do not think they are poor growers of hops. I'd also doubt that the grain and adjunct growers are sending crap produce to the breweries either. Quality control at the breweries would, I expect, be quite high in this respect. If the quality of the inputs varied too much then the brewery would have to do a lot of blending/modifications to be able to produce a consistent product, which is what the customer wants in the end.

For a lot of customers they want a consistent product, regardless of where they purchase it. This is one of the reasons that fast food outlets such as McDonalds, KFC and Hungry Jacks are so successful. Their product may not taste the best but the customer knows that whereever they are, the product will taste the same.

As an example, when I was travelling overseas on business a lot, I'd sometimes stop at a McDonalds for food. Not because I like the stuff, mind you, but because I wanted to eat something without having to worry too m uch about what it was going to taste like.

gary

That's a really good point and if you look at the CUB plant at Yatala in QLD, they produce literally millions of litres a week - the consistency of finished product is mind-blowing when you see it in this context.

 

[the_fuzz]

As for marketing the brew, the big two are very careful to cast in a negative light any non-Australian style beers.

The Carlton draught adds are very much about this. The "made from beer" slogan is very much saying any beer that emphasizes ingredients or quality is a wankers beer.

You seem to misunderstand the marketing - CUB and Tooheys have been taking the piss out of each other for a very long time. Their adds are generally aimed at each other. Carltons add is taking the piss out of tooheys adds, by saying "they just have beer, you can go and make an expensive add which almost has nothing to do with beer, but we just have beer"

Same with the latest Hahn "man skating" adds. they are very much saying "real men drink Australian style beers".

Once again, you read way to far into it - they are just taking the piss out of pre-mixed drinks. Basically real men drink beer - nothing else...........


Tooheys and CUB have gone with the funny adds for a while as Australians respond to these types of adds, nothing to do with putting down international beers - especially with the fact that the big 2 generally have the BUL for them and are a good seller for them.

Interesting fact: In the Toohey's New add where the Stagg and women are catapulted into the sky and it rains beer - Tooheys received numerous complaints about the add - they were actually expecting complaints about the add and were prepared in advance the withdraw the add, based on the fact that women were catapulted into the air.

However, they received over 1000 complaints - all bar 2, where complaints about the fact that a poor animal was shot into the sky.......... I personally thought that was hilarious.

 

[the_fuzz]

That's a really good point and if you look at the CUB plant at Yatala in QLD, they produce literally millions of litres a week - the consistency of finished product is mind-blowing when you see it in this context.

That is why I love walking through the Tooheys Plant at Lidcombe - it really is mind blowing when you see the size of it and the fact that everything is so controlled - I have problems with 46 litres being consistent, these guys are churning out roughly 120000 litres every 4-6 hours and it tastes the same every time.

 

[shonky]

If they were to start brewing beers to a similar standard as to the Euro lagers/Pilsners etc. then it would cost as much (or more) to produce than the imported megaswill

I'm not sure I agree with this statement, the cost of production is minimal compared to excise, distribution, packaging and marketing. I would be very surprised, for example, if crown lager cost any more to produce than vb (seeing as it comes from the same wort stream), possibly a tiny bit more for hops, but in terms of a case of beer you are probably talking about a few cents here and there as a difference between all large breweries beers not the $10-30 price difference us consumers have to bear. Of course if grain and hop prices continue to rise quickly this may become a factor over time.

The price of the beers are ultimately what the customers are prepared to pay IMO.

Cheers

 

[Julez]

That is why I love walking through the Tooheys Plant at Lidcombe - it really is mind blowing when you see the size of it and the fact that everything is so controlled - I have problems with 46 litres being consistent, these guys are churning out roughly 120000 litres every 4-6 hours and it tastes the same every time.

Yep, it's phenomenal! I know this is a slight tangent to the topic, but I just dug this up from a quick Google search - adds some interesting perspective to the discussion, if nothing else...

"Carlton & United Beverages division of the Foster's Group has completed its 170 million expansion of the Gold Coast-based Yatala Brewery. The Brewery will now produce 450 million litres a year, which translates into more than 1.4 billion stubbies. The plant's capacity can be increased to 540 million litres annually.

The Yatala Brewery has been expanded to lift its annual output to 25 per cent of Australia's beer production. The wide range of brands being brewed and packaged at Yatala includes Victorian Bitter, Carlton Mid-Strength, Crown Lager, Fosters Lager and Powers Gold."
​

That certainly puts the "mega" in megaswill !!!! ​

​

​

 

[maltedhopalong]

Taking the fast food analogy further, many people (myself included) love mcdonalds because it's always there and we're always eating it. We're conditioned to like it, it's not a conspiracy theory, sure maccas wants us to like it, but in the end it's the nature of it.

I DO like Macdonalds. That's not to say I don't appreciate a big juicy grain-fed steak and vegies 1000 times more.

Nonetheless, McDonalds make meals that are meticulously designed to be unoffensive, and enjoyable to eat (conversely, no attempt is made to cook food aimed at food critics). It may not be the highest quality in terms of coinosseurs, but they DO NOT take their burgers out the back and rub them in the dirt to deliberately make them taste disgusting (that's what the rogue 8 to 10 year old employees do).

Commercial megaswill is (i contend) slightly OVER-hopped for the level of maltiness. This makes the beers drier and crisper (they ARE designed to be drunk cold). The beers are under-malted (or whatever the correct word is) because this makes it easier to throw down glass after glass. There is little to no hops flavour/aroma because less palates are educated enough to appreciate it (and not go "Hey bazza, someone's gone an' put grass clippings in me beer!!!")

All in all, they are not coinnosseur's beer, but in fairness, they are deliberately so. They are not maliciously saboutaged, they are designed to be easily drunk by anyone and everyone. They ARE easy to drink. Like I said earlier, I love freshly squeezed orange juice, but not everyone's palate is ready for the tartness, not all tastebuds appreciate it. A glass of water with a slice of orange in it still has that orange taste, but it's a lot easier to drink, and easier for more people to appreciate.

So what makes megaswill so crap? I guess my response would be the fact that it's DESIGNED for the lowest common denominator.

 

[mfdes]

Isn't it funny while Australian mainstream 'discerning' drinkers will choose an import such as Stella or Heineken (both brewed domestically but still passed as 'imports'), many people in Europe and North America will drink Fosters! Yes, the 'F' word!

You'd be surprised how many people in Europe
1) think Fosters is THE beer that's made and consumed in Australia (little if anything else), and
2) think it's better than their locally produced mainstream beers.

This entire argument about Australian 'megaswill': Have you travelled much overseas and tasted mainstream beers in different countries? If you had you'd realise there is a reason people think Australian beer is good: the story repeats itself the world over. The consumer demands thirst-quenching light lager served at 2 degrees centigrade. You find this product dominating the beer market in every major country in the world.

Finally, all these people bagging POR hops: There is really nothing wrong with POR, they're very nice hops when used properly. There is currently more worldwide demand than supply for this variety, as it ripens far too late to be grown elsewhere. Do you realise they're hardly grown in Australia any more? Good old Pride of Ringwood is nowadays a (superseded) defunct variety. Only a couple of breweries use it, but it makes up only a single digit percentage of the Australian hops grown. Do you realise people make the same megaswill with all noble hop varieties? Anheuser busch use only low alpha aroma noble hops for their bittering. Much megaswill is made in Europe using perfectly good hops.
Please don't blame a perfectly good hop for your subjective percieved lack of quality in a beer.

So if no longer POR, what are Australian beer made with these days?
Mainstream varieties, I'm sorry to disappoint you, are:

-Millenium
-Super Pride (not, I think, a Pride seedling, but a seedling of J78)
-Topaz
-Galaxy
-Symphony

Others in development with larger acreages:

-Valley
-Noon
-Wenceslas

Many of these are simply mixed up as high-mix for CO2 extraction. What you get is pure iso-alpha and beta acid and nothing else.

MFS.

 

[justsomeguy]

Taking the fast food analogy further, many people (myself included) love mcdonalds because it's always there and we're always eating it. We're conditioned to like it, it's not a conspiracy theory, sure maccas wants us to like it, but in the end it's the nature of it.

I DO like Macdonalds. That's not to say I don't appreciate a big juicy grain-fed steak and vegies 1000 times more.

Nonetheless, McDonalds make meals that are meticulously designed to be unoffensive, and enjoyable to eat (conversely, no attempt is made to cook food aimed at food critics). It may not be the highest quality in terms of coinosseurs, but they DO NOT take their burgers out the back and rub them in the dirt to deliberately make them taste disgusting (that's what the rogue 8 to 10 year old employees do).

Exactly. I could get a McDonalds burger from Perth, Melbourne, Los Angeles and San Francisco, put them side by side and you would be hard pressed being able to tell the difference. Their key is consistency. As I indicated earlier, it may not be the best food but you know exactly what you are getting. I think megaswill is similar in this respect, I may not really like it too much, but I know what its going to taste like when I do get it. From a consumers point of view this is key. A consumer wants a consistent product, not something that is going to vary all the time.

Whether you love or hate them, I am amazed and tip my hats to the fact that the breweries can produce megaswill or any beer for that matter that is so consistent given the variability of grain crops, hops and adjuncts.

gary

 

[Mantis]

Exactly. I could get a McDonalds burger from Perth, Melbourne, Los Angeles and San Francisco, put them side by side and you would be hard pressed being able to tell the difference. Their key is consistency. As I indicated earlier, it may not be the best food but you know exactly what you are getting. I think megaswill is similar in this respect, I may not really like it too much, but I know what its going to taste like when I do get it. From a consumers point of view this is key. A consumer wants a consistent product, not something that is going to vary all the time.

Whether you love or hate them, I am amazed and tip my hats to the fact that the breweries can produce megaswill or any beer for that matter that is so consistent given the variability of grain crops, hops and adjuncts.

gary

So true this analogy with maccas. I go to the local footy on Saturday and usually stand beside the beer truck. Nearly every guy that comes and gets their first beer for the day has a swig and says "God that tastes like crap" or something similar. Followed by laughter all round and things like "They get better mate" etc.
It is megaswill and it tastes awfall for a while. Then it is just tipped down with abandenment till at least silly or even fall down drunk.
Yes, the big breweries do it well.
Shit, I have to put in special orders at the bottle shop here to get Coopers long necks in. The coolrooms are filled to the roof with CUB.
Hey, I am not being holier than thee here, I am very guilty of swilling Hahn Ice with gay abandenment, but now I am getting into this brewing thing I am very much a happier person.


:beer:

 

[Hutch]

I'm not sure I agree with this statement, the cost of production is minimal compared to excise, distribution, packaging and marketing. I would be very surprised, for example, if crown lager cost any more to produce than vb (seeing as it comes from the same wort stream), possibly a tiny bit more for hops, but in terms of a case of beer you are probably talking about a few cents here and there as a difference between all large breweries beers not the $10-30 price difference us consumers have to bear. Of course if grain and hop prices continue to rise quickly this may become a factor over time.

The price of the beers are ultimately what the customers are prepared to pay IMO.

Cheers

You're probably right - excise, packaging, distribution, marketing, etc would amount to a large percent of the retail price.
I still recon that access to the right ingredients (in the quantity required) for making premium beer would be a major part of the problem. In my experience of AG brewing, you CANNOT produce a genuine Euro-style pils using all-Aussie ingredients. The hops issue has been metioned quite a few times - you could not use POR. Importing would be the only option, as even the locally grown Hallertau, Hersbruker, etc. are completely different to the imported variety, and are not (yet) grown in the quantities required. They are also much lower alpha acid variety hops, so a great deal more would be required than is currently the case wth POR (of those breweries that actually use real hops, that is!).

Malt is perhaps an even bigger factor. This is not a "imported is always better" rant - You can make fantastic beer with Aussie malts, but you just can't make genuine Euro-style beers without Euro malts. This is why most AG brewers (and micrbrewers) insist on using various imported Weyermann malts in these styles. With the quantity of beer produced by the mega-breweries to keep the entire population drinking, that would be a SERIOUS quantity of grain being shipped over from europe - imagine the cost of that, not to mention guaranteeing supply year-in, year-out, come rain, shine, droughts, floods, etc.

...We should all be very thankful that we, as homebrewers, have access to all of these quality ingredients, and can make whatever beer we like, irrespective of what the mega-breweries choose to produce!
Vive la HB!

 

[ibast]

This entire argument about Australian 'megaswill': Have you travelled much overseas and tasted mainstream beers in different countries? If you had you'd realise there is a reason people think Australian beer is good: the story repeats itself the world over.

I'd have to disagree. It was only after traveling overseas and then coming back that I realised how bad Australian beer really was.

It's what got me into home brewing.

 

[mfdes]

I'd have to disagree. It was only after traveling overseas and then coming back that I realised how bad Australian beer really was.

It's what got me into home brewing.

Well, my experience when I lived in Europe and the States was that mainstream (not carefully-chosen above-the-cut stuff) beer such as Bud, Miller, Coors, Amstel, Heineken, Stella, Carlsberg, Mahou, Aguila, San Miguel, Perroni, Kingfisher, Kirin, Sapporo, Asahi, oand your generic, local light lager that most people drink is much the same worldwide.

I of course exclude most real ale, genuine bitters, stouts, and other good local styles (Belgians, proper German and Czeck Pilsner, etc...)

MFS.

 

[ibast]

Well, my experience when I lived in Europe and the States was that mainstream (not carefully-chosen above-the-cut stuff) beer such as Bud, Miller, Coors, Amstel, Heineken, Stella, Carlsberg, Mahou, Aguila, San Miguel, Perroni, Kingfisher, Kirin, Sapporo, Asahi, oand your generic, local light lager that most people drink is much the same worldwide.

I of course exclude most real ale, genuine bitters, stouts, and other good local styles (Belgians, proper German and Czeck Pilsner, etc...)

MFS.

Yeah beer's pretty bad in the US, but they are as guilt of adjunct abuse as we are. Their beer is, whilst not to the Australian palate, is probable more balanced.

Still not good.

 

[peas_and_corn]

that might be true, but the US has a much more developed craftbrew culture than Australia

 

[ibast]

that might be true, but the US has a much more developed craftbrew culture than Australia

Getting a bit off topic, but I went to Colorado last year and was really suprised. Good brewing scene there.

 

[barneyhanway]

The previously universal truth that "Americans make terrible adjunct filled watery beer" hasn't been true for quite some time. They are leading the (dare I say) craft revolution, Aussie and particularly NZ could learn a great deal from them.

There was a book brought out by an American writer recently (heard about it in brewing podcasts late last year) that pretty much debunked the myth that US megaswill brewers forced their crap tasteless lager on an unsuspecting public. The author, whom the podcaster interviewed, stated in no uncertain terms that the brewers adapted their products to suit the taste of the market. I'd never thought this to be true but it does make an interesting counterpoint to mass-production marketing conspiricists.

My take is that big brewers create a rather bland variety of lager. Very well brewed, flawless lager, but bland lager nonetheless. The overriding characteristic of lager is its clean profile. With bland lager, magnify that x100. The things that make it bland are: use of adjuncts, high percentage of cheap simple sugers, low hopping rates, cold serving temperatures, carbonation. These things are done for more than one reason, chiefly - lower cost or production, and the requirement that it is as innoffensive as possible to the broadest possible audience.

Just like food (I for one can't stand McD's) I lean towards the slow food movement. Same for beer. Quantity over quality in EVERY instance. Of course being an all grain homebrewer, I get quantity AND quality

 

[dc59]

I was raised on VB and drank it exclusively for 25 years until I started home brewing. For me it was the best beer in the world and no one could tell me any different. Now that my taste has been changed I can no longer drink VB and to me it tastes like crap. So in answer to your question What Makes Megaswill Just So Crap? I would have to say for me home brewing.

I love this comment and can very easily relate to it, except instead of VB it was new and instead of 25 years it was more like 5 years. All the same, it answers the original question and is the truth (at least for me).

If they were to start brewing beers to a similar standard as to the Euro lagers/Pilsners etc. then it would cost as much (or more) to produce than the imported megaswill (better grain bill, imported hops, water treatement, cold fermentation, extended lagering, etc. etc.), and would consequently not sell. There would be no "premium imported" label, and therefore impossible to sell at the inflated price. Unfortunately we're stuck with the substandard quality they churn out in order to maximise turnover, and therefor profit.

Like you, I wish it could change overnight, but I don't think this is ever likely to happen.

Not true, if you wont to improve the standard of your domestic swill overnight, its easy.
Move to Belgium.

 

[mfdes]

I'm sorry but isn't this 'megaswill' debate pure "look-at-me, aren't-I-good?"
How many of you started home brewing better quality beer than mainstream lagers off the posts.
For me it took 2 years of intensive brewing to get better ale than almost any commercially available, and close to 5 years to brew a truly good lager or pilsner.
Before you bag a megaswill show me you can beat it in a fair competition.

MFS