What Is The Next Step Up From K&k?

[Back Yard Brewer]

Don't f&^k around. Get into AG. Sometimes baby steps can be a waste of time. Do it. You know you want to

Yep true. I went from Kits and then head first into AG. Side stepped partials. Mind you I have had tried some partials which arent to half bad. But I am glad I went head first to AG. Had a couple disasters because of bad yeast practice (my fault)

BYB

 

[PostModern]

Yes and most emphatically yes. It is surprisingly easy to do, and will open up whole new levels of awesome to your brewing.

But nothing, NOTHING like the awesome of AG. The first full boil extract and hops beer I made to test out the new burner and kettle while my mash tun was still under construction was the best beer I'd made to date. The very first AG I made just a few days later was 100x better. I spent a lot of time, a number of years in fact, fiddling with pots and teensy weensy mash tuns in the kitchen trying to make great partial mash beers, and to this day, I regret every brew that wasn't AG. Sure you learn a bit about hopping and so on, but with the element of control taken away by the source and nature of the extract, you never get the same result.

Save your pennies, perfect your fermentation with kits and fresh wort packs, and get a full scale AG brewery. You won't regret it if you are in any way serious about making great beer.

EDIT: BYB agrees!

 

[Adamt]

Save your pennies, perfect your fermentation with kits and fresh wort packs, and get a full scale AG brewery. You won't regret it if you are in any way serious about making great beer.

This is the key decision maker.

By saying you can't be bothered with the "mess" associated with mash brewing, it sounds like you're either not in it for the craft side of things or have just never had a proper beer before.

If brewing to you is about making something palatable for you to swill, you're better off saving your money and brewing with better kits/extracts (nothing wrong with that I guess...). However if you're looking to make a top quality product, you MUST start mashing; build a full mash brewery and don't look back.

I'm another kits -> full mash brewer. The thought of drinking kit beer on a regular basis makes me dry reach.

 

[Weizguy]

Fresh wort Kit, b4 you jump to ag.
It is truly written that Fresh Wort Kits are the gateway drug to the all-grain subculture.
FWIW.
Les

 

[albrews]

Ok, I have been k&k'ing for some time now and am wondering how to improve my results?

My initial thought is to use either powdered malt and hops. This would seem to be the next step up to me.

I really don't want to get into all grain due to the mess involved.

So is there a middle ground?

Cheers :icon_chickcheers: Mick C

Oh yes and if stuffa reads this sorry about the wyeast yeast, I honestly didn't get time to send it, just started a new job and its been madness.

hi, k&k minimashed with a kilo of grain to improve foam of the beer.

cheers
alan

 

[matti]

If you want to make nice beer add only malts.
ESB 3 kgs Kits from ESB sponsor.
Look in Grain grape recipesHere
And keep moving up the ladder

 

[Jase71]

There appears to be a schism on this forum between AG'ers and kit/extract methodology, driven almost exclusivly by the former crowd and at times being expressed by fantasical statements. But let's not forget that if one does even a simple kit, perhaps with the addition of a good malt and ideal conditions, that many people are producing the best beer they have ever tasted..

I for one have tried perhaps a hundred commercial beers (I seriously don't know, but this figure wouldn't be far off), and perhaps forty pub-based microbrewery beers (from about 10 places), all of which would be no doubt using AG, which is a given in the context of large production. And I have to say that while there have been some gems, there's also been a lot of crap. Now these are from brewhouses that make a living, albeit sometimes meagre, from 'the craft', so we might consider their prosesses to be well-worn & tested.

On the other hand I have tasted many 'kits & bits' beers, mostly from one person who doesn't spend a lot of time or money (per brew) on the craft, but produced some outstanding results across a wide range of styles nonetheless. If I was taking notes and analysing the results over time, I would lean to a higher % success rate of producing beers that are mighty fine. To clarify my tastes, I'm not coming from the megaswill camp, therefore not speaking of beers that are produced that simly clone crap commercials, for I swore off the common, local commercial rubbish many years ago (Ok, not rigidly sworn off, there are occasions when I have no choice in the matter, but on these occasions it borders on tolerable when it's the only 'port in a storm').

There's also many members here who I'm sure produce outstanding kit or extract beers that are the best beer they have ever tasted. So what's the implication of these AG'ers statements - is it that my tastes are simply not as developed or pronounced? It's certainly not that I haven't tried a lot of what is ultimatly all-grain beer (see paragraph 2).

It can't be denied that the satisfaction level of DIY is a wonderful thing, and something that I myself would go for if money and residential circumstances were in favour of it. But to suggest that a hundred dollar outlay vs a $1k (and that's being modest) opens one to realms unimaginable is a bit much, and I wonder of the beer can be expressed as 10 times better?

 

[Goofinder]

Good points Jase. I still reckon you can produce some pretty good beer from kits and bits, although I probably won't brew another one myself.

Expecting everyone to go straight into AG brewing is a bit much. Sure, once you've done it AG doesn't seem that hard, but there's a serious investment in time to read up on everything and gear before you can get to that point.

I say have a good read of Thirsty Boy's doco as that is a great list of simpler things you can do to start making better beer. Once you've got them all sorted, then move into AG. You'll produce better AG beer that way.

 

[Gavo]

For me the next step up from K&K is to, has been go into extract brewing, be that liquid malt or dry malt for other brewers, I have only used dry extract. I have done some kits and bits basically to use up old stock and in comparison to un-hopped extract I would choose un-hopped extract every time.
My reasons for this are that extract can work out a little cheaper than highly tweaking kits, depending on how you tweak kits and what you pay for ingredients. The flavor of all extract brewing adding specialty grain and hops is far better than tweaking kits. All extract brewing does not require the scale of equipment that AG does, I am using a 12 litre for boiling and a 7 litre stockpot for steeping grains and a two dollar strainer. Sixty minute boils can be done on the kitchen stove-top.
I will probably...most likely... inevitably... well you get the idea, go into AG. In the meantime though I will keep on doing extracts and partials until I get enough equipment and experience together to do AG.

By the way is it worth the extra effort to leave kits behind? YES and you won't go back.

Cheers
Gavo

 

[Wardhog]

But to suggest that a hundred dollar outlay vs a $1k (and that's being modest) opens one to realms unimaginable is a bit much, and I wonder of the beer can be expressed as 10 times better?

Have you tasted a fresh well made all-grain beer? If not, find an AGer near you, get pally and do so.

I spent a while at extract + extras level, and was pretty impressed with the beers I was turning out. When I made my first AG, it was a whole new level that I never knew existed (I think I got lucky with it). It made me not want to ever use extract again, it was that much better.

My AG beers are on the continual improve, and will be forever. But, having a family, mortgage and other things to do in life, I don't always have the time for an AG brewday - which is why I'm also revisiting the cans of extract, specialty grain and hops. And I'm really pleased I have.

In my beer fridge right now, the AG best bitter, lager and oktoberfest bottles stand neglected while I bash my way through a red ale made from extract + extras with a contented smile on my face.

To sum up : You can make a brilliant beer with extract, though GOOD all grain beer is untouchable by extract, in my opinion. But AG is for later down the track, after learning curves have been conquered and obsession firmly in place.

Mick C was asking if it is worth it to learn more, to become more advanced. I don't think it's in dispute that it is, but please don't read the answer as "Yes, but it'll still be crap. AG is the only way of making good beer." AG may be the best way, but it's not the only way.

 

[PostModern]

<snip>

I've tasted many commercial beers too. And I've judged in club, state and national homebrew comps. Now there is nothing wrong with kit beer per se. Hell, the nationals were won a couple years ago by a kit beer. In my experience, tho, I have found it is actually harder to make a good beer with a kit than AG. Much harder. You start with something that a kit manufacturer has made, coloured and bittered to a particular point. The skill of the brewer is to turn this into the beer s/he wants. When brewing AG, you choose everything, control everything, so it is much much easier to hit your targets as there are no constraints placed on you.

I hate to show ingredient snobbery, but extract is OF malt, it is not malt. Have you every had instant coffee right next to fresh brewed espresso? Or orange juice made from concentrate right next to juice squeezed straight out of an orange? Yes, I know those comparisons are cliche, but they're bang on the head correct.

 

[Stuster]

But to suggest that a hundred dollar outlay vs a $1k (and that's being modest)

Basically, I agree with you that kits and bits beers can be good. My experience was that I was very happy to make those beers and thought they were great when I started. When I went to AG, I thought MY beers got better. So it did make a difference TO ME and I'm happy I do, partly because as a craft it really feels that they're all your beer and as PoMo said, you do it all yourself (though really the maltster should get credit too).

I wanted just to pick you up on this point though. There's no need to spend that much for a simple system. I think it definitely cost me less than $400 to go AG. 36L esky ($35), burner and HP reg ($100), 50L kettle ($100), plumbing fittings for kettle and esky, braid etc ($100 or so), gas bottle ($40). And that's really all I've got now. Sure, it's not a bling system but it's absolutely fine and does the job. Actually, I started with less than that (just the esky and fittings for that) and boiled it on the stove in a cheap 20L kettle for the first couple of AGs until I was sure I was happy to spend the rest. Just wanted to point out it's not that pricey (unless you want it to be).

 

[raven19]

IMO the next step is dependant on the size of the step you want to take... :icon_cheers:

Personally I did plenty of partials, KnB's, etc for years until my eyes were opened to AG brewing.

A little bit of mess is so much worth it when the result is great AG beer.

 

[geoffd]

I agree with the general consensus of going straight to all grain, I made my first 11 beers from liquid extract, hopped it myself and used saf yeasts, and it all tasted very ordinary at best. My worst all grain was better than my best extract attempt, yes i know my technique has improved, but if i brewed an extract today i know it wouldnt be a patch on all grain.
Important to note, extract brewing is the most expensive type of brewing - $40-50 for a 25 litre batch, all grain is easily half the price or less, so outlay on equipment is soon recouped.
I brewed about 325 litres of beer last year for $280 (ingredients only) add bottlecaps & cleaner etc.
The equivelent in extract brewing would cost $600+ & in the bottleshop even at $14 a 6 pack would be well over $2K.
If you're not ready for all grain, some of the brewshops sell uncondensed pre hopped wort, comes in 18 litres, can be thinned to 23 & can be modified. General prices are $40-50 including the yeast. If i couldnt / didnt want to mash, this would be the next best thing.
Welcome to the slippery slope of always wanting to bring your beer to a new level, as soon an you improve your malt, you'll change focus to the hops, yeast or water. Before you know it you'll have a mini industrial brewery in your house...which can only be a good thing :chug:

 

[drsmurto]

Time for my dolmio example Jase.

Spag bol made by dumping jar of dolmio in with mince = kits

Spag bol made from fresh tomatoes, fresh herbs etc, simmered for hours = AG

Is one 100x better than the other.

Damn straight.

Sounds like you need to meet and greet an AG brewer on a brewday and sample some of his/her wares.

Like a few others i jumped straight from kits to AG. I met a few AG brewers and was lucky to be invited to watch an AG being brewed - DrGonzo. Tasted his beer, saw the process and how simple it was compared to what i had pictured and i was lost to the dark side.

You can make decent kit beers. Ditch the kit yeast, ditch the sugar and maltodextrin, ditch the stale teabags of hops, control your ferment temp (as appropriate to yeast and style) and add some crystal for colour/flavour and you are on your way. The only problem is once you smell the crystal malt steeping you are already moving to the dark side without even knowing it......

 

[robbo5253]

My next step after K & K was Masterbrews by Grumpys (now Stillbrewing) and these were a great step.

Simple to do with one pot and a strainer and helped me produce much better beers!!

The advice from Brad & Phil is also priceless.

No affiliation etc

Cheers and Better Beers

Robbo

 

[Fermented]

The AG guys are right. The comparisons made between instant coffee (it's not coffee, it's bathwater) and espresso properly made from fine beans (stuff to make the heart and mind sing) is spot on.

Fresh wort? Tastes rather good, but costly in my opinion, and somehow the lack of hands-on makes it feel like a hollow victory. I like to do stuff.

Partials? Yes, a baby step, but a confidence builder.

Heck, even going all malt and doing your own hopping is a vast increase in quality over the kits.

Good grief - even hopping kits for a tweak is a good start.

If you're fully gung-ho and committed to the hobby then going AG and doing it right on day one and you have the space and the resources, then go for it. I'm certain you would not regret it.

However, if you're like me and need to build confidence and get your head around each part then the baby steps, while consuming more $$$ than making the jump to AG, should be reasonably pleasing.

As with anything in brewing (or any of the food and beverage crafts), ask ten people, get fifteen answers.

Good luck with your choice. Love to hear where the journey takes you.

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[Adamt]

To be brutally honest, K&K/Extract is just not brewing. You aren't brewing anything. You're (maybe boiling and) fermenting.

Mashing is brewing.

 

[Fermented]

Hmmm - you're right Adam... Let's just call it "making beer".

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[robbo5253]

To be brutally honest, K&K/Extract is just not brewing. You aren't brewing anything. You're (maybe boiling and) fermenting.

Mashing is brewing.

Does that make this forum only for Ag Brewers then as us Kits and Bits people do not fall under the "Aussie Home Brewer" Title?

A bit harsh I think!

Cheers and Beers