Wanting To Start Out Some Ag, So Is This Worth It?

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Yep, I agree

Join the frey of all-grain brewing but beware it does become an obsession (ie you will have trouble drinking most of the commercial brews you are used to drinking)

cheers

DARREN
 
(ie you will have trouble drinking most of the commercial brews you are used to drinking)

Which is ok because suddenly $30 a carton seems prohibitively expensive :)

My vote is a cheap 80L pot ($100 new), the biggest gas burner you can afford (23jet mongolian is around $150 ), a biab bag ($25), 1.5m of silicone hose ($15), a bull dog clip ($2) and 4 cubes ($60) (20L water drums from the disposals). This will give you everything you need (if you already have the fermenting stuff), plus you'll be able to brew double batches. Then you got money left over for a grain mill, a couple sacks of grain and a few kilos of hops.

That $600 system looks a little expensive, even if it is convenient. Acquiring the above items won't be too hard
 
Hi. You can pick up a simple All Grain Starter Kit at one of our stores (or online) for $399 - its just the basics:

- 38 litre Mash-tun with False bottom + Ball-Valve Tap
- 50 litre Boiler with Side-pickup + Ball-Valve Tap
- 1 Meter Silicon Hose
- 12 Dial Thermometer

You'll find more info and pictures at:
http://www.brewerschoice.com.au/product-in...-mash-kits.html

We will also crack all the grain for you, and provide the Whitelabs yeast and fresh hops as well, if you want them. We generally encourage no-chill as the easiest way to get started, avoiding the cost of chillers. We also stock some basic recipes kits with all the grain, hops and yeast to get you started on your first brew, if you want to start that way.
Call us on 1300 TO BREW to ask any questions about getting started or find us at www.brewerschoice.com.au

Cheers David



That looks like a great kit there Dave
 
I just gotta say an HLT is something that makes life soooooooooo much easier for a multi vessel brewer.
Re OP. wouldn't go near a $600 plastic bucket. Pots, keggles, whatever, get metallic. Way longer lasting and cheaper than that $600 heap of moulded plastic. if you need a burner, I suggest looking at an Italian spiral burner from Beerbelly, really efficient thing. Lots of advice on here about building electric systems too.
 
Hey guys can we please Please stick to the topic.
 
An imported or retired local 50L keg can be had for around $50 in second hand condition (likely to have some very minor dents/scratches and probably require new seals [irrelevant]).

If you drill a 22mm hole you can weldlessly fit a full 1/2" bore 3 piece ball valve with around $50 in parts (all available from the sponsors) and just get a $2 olive style compression fitting from bunnings and fit a 1/2" copper offcut (everyone knows someone who has had plumbing rennovations/repairs and has offcuts). For around $110 you've got a 50L pot and tap.

Drill a 32mm hole and add a $40 weldless 2200w element and you've got a 50L electric keggle for $150.

If you find something to act as a raised false bottom (above element) (<$50), you can safely dump a BIAB in and chuck some (I have 1m, but I'd recommend 1.5m) heat resistant silocone hosing in ($15)you're off and away.

Spotlight has Swiss Voile material for $7 a metre. So even if you seriously over compensate and buy 2m, you are still at under $200 overall, plus you can make a few hop socks and what not.

The best thing about starting off this way is that if you later decide to move to a three vessel set-up, your e-keggle can become the hot liquor tank and still service a double batch system, so you have not wasted any more than a few dollars. If you have money left over, I'd recommend adding a sight guage, as even for BIAB, it is damn handy even just to be able to add water directly from the tap, let alone monitor boil-off etc.

A couple of extra costs that creep in that are easy to forget.

1. Storage. You need to be able to store your grains in sealable containers so that vermin, insects and moisture cannot get in. (Most shops (sponsors included) that supply grains give the option of premilling and mixing based on a recipe you supply, so you can put this off for a while, but it's simply uneconomical to keep this up if you are producing enough beer to justify 25kg bags of grains a few times a year at least.)

2. A grain mill. If you are going to buy 25kg sacks, you'll hate your life if you are using a coffee grinder every time you want to brew. A mill setup can cost as much as you're willing to spend, but expect $150 at least.

3. Yeast starter equipment. You can stick to once-use dried yeasts with good results, but ultimately if you're spending the cash on quality grains, you'll want to keep your yeasts on par - and also save some valable cash on splitting yeasts so they go further. A $40 flask and some plastic vials ($20 for 50) will do, but you will definitely want to consider adding a stir-plate, which can be done for under $50 if built DIY.

4. Cubes for crash chilling (Aussie Disposals has them for under $15). It's been mentioned already, but I thought I'd add it in, as you're seriously going to want at least one hanging around post boil or you're in for a stressful brewday.
 
That may be all well and good for some iralosavic, but in my opinion if I saw that as an option for moving to AG back when I was a kit brewer I would have stuck with kits. Sourcing and buying a second hand keg, then drilling into it (if I even owned a drill, and no doubt completely stuffing it up and having to buy another 2 kegs before I got it right) then having to buy a dozen other bits and pieces from all sorts of suppliers, then calling up uncle Spiro to see if he has any copper offcuts (whatever those are) lying around his back shed and then putting it all together on your own without a clue how to do so? Whewee. Cant go wrong with an urn and a pre-sewn Biab bag if turn-key simplicity is what you're after....
 
That may be all well and good for some iralosavic, but in my opinion if I saw that as an option for moving to AG back when I was a kit brewer I would have stuck with kits. Sourcing and buying a second hand keg, then drilling into it (if I even owned a drill, and no doubt completely stuffing it up and having to buy another 2 kegs before I got it right) then having to buy a dozen other bits and pieces from all sorts of suppliers, then calling up uncle Spiro to see if he has any copper offcuts (whatever those are) lying around his back shed and then putting it all together on your own without a clue how to do so? Whewee. Cant go wrong with an urn and a pre-sewn Biab bag if turn-key simplicity is what you're after....

Yep, an urn is definitely a valid alternative for the DIY shy! Your scenario may be relevant to as many if not more people than it isn't. No doubt about it. Just throwing a DIY option out there.


I'm only mildly handy myself, ie I can change suspension on a car and fix a leaking tap, but I couldn't rebuild an engine or plumb in a new basin. Seriously though, you can just buy a pre-assembled bulk head and save yourself the hassle of figuring out what parts you need (that being said the search engine here will reveal I have personally contributed a thread that links every part needed). As for drilling the holes - most people have a relative, friend or neighbour who is handy and willing to lend a hand. Most boiler makers etc will have hole saws in every size you can think of and even if you just borrowed the bit and drill, it's not hard at all to drill the hole. Drill a smaller pilot hole, then lube the drilling surface and begin with the hole saw by applying light to moderate pressure, drilling in short bursts. Stainless steel WORK HARDENS, so anyone thinking of attempting this, do not just hold the drigger down and lean your body weight into it and ever expect to cut a hole. :)
 
Can't make any sense of this thread now!

Anyway, just my 2 cents and not trying to start an argument but before I went all grain I received some advice to get my own large pot that's big enough to do doubles. In hindsight I personally think this is very bad advice. I ended up not using the pot and getting an urn instead.
 
For fuggs sake,

All an allgrain brewer needs is a POT (look under the sink, bigger is better), a KETTLE (it is used to boil water for coffee in the morning), a SIEVE (aka a strainer, bigger the better) and a STOVE (meals are cooked on it in the evening).

If you cannot put your hands on a food processor, buy some CRACKED BARLEY MALT, place it in the pot. Add water at around 75 C (aiming to acheive ~ 67 C in the pot including the malt). Wait 30-45 minutes. Strain water/liquid (wort) into new container. Throw malt away. Boil the sweet sugary wort in original pot (30 minutes will do for starters). Add hops, 10 minutes in the boil. Cool in a sink full of water. Add yeast. Wait 10 days. Drink....you can bottle at this stage if you wish.

All grain beer for NOTHING, nick, nada, nilch. No investment, no outlay.

The brewer could add this wort to a kit, or boil up additional extract (known a mini mash)

Only way to know whether it is worth it is to try adding some of your own freshly prepared wort to a kit (or extract) beer.

Beware though, once you have tried it, you wont look back and then there will be invetiable perilous search for further knowledge/gear.

In a nutshell. Any brewer can make allgrain beer with the things that are in their kitchen. There is no need to look any further than getting a coupla kilos of crushed malted barley.

cheers

Darren
 
That's quite a good point. You may not be able to make a 23L batch, but you can effectively make some good beer with household equipment. The only issue is that no one really wants to spend that much time on 5L of beer when you could be making 20 with just a bigger pot and some swiss voile.
 
I'm new to AG, but I was faced with a similar thing not long ago. My parents house, which is where I brew has a raging wok burner on the stove. If I had anything less, I'd have gone with an urn.

If you have a really powerful stove or burner available to you, do that and buy a SS pot from the cheapest place you can find in your nearest chinese/vietnamese community/shopping centre. BIAB bag from Grain and Grape is really cheap and works well.

If you don't have a good stove, I really dont see how a pot/burner/reg for burner works out to be any better than an urn....

Either way, the things you will need are: a way to heat a large amount of liquid to boiling point, a vessel to do this in, some way of removing the grain before boiling (Ie. biab bag), a good thermometer, a good hydrometer and a good solution for getting boiling wort in to your fermenter (siphon to no chill, use pump to chiller etc.).
 
I really dont see how a pot/burner/reg for burner works out to be any better than an urn....
I have both and the difference is control.
 
I have both and the difference is control.

Control in what part of the brewing process? Is it the further control over the boil itself that you are referring to? I can see how that would be the case - assuming that the thermostat is on/off rather than dimming...
 
Not just the boil but hitting strike too.

Not saying electric isn't good of course. Like I said - I have both.
 
Seriously, there's a lot of really good advice in this thread.


One way to read it would be this:

There's more than one way to go All Grain.

The important thing may just be trying it, to get an understanding of the
"Crushed grains in warm water > grains out > boil hops in wort > chill" part.
As from there on in, it's just the same same as you do with kits.


Nick's thread on stovetop aussie lager is a great place to start.
If you end up doing this, you now have run through the entire process from end to end.

If you don't end up doing it, you still understand the process and hopefully why this works.

Then if you end up doing it stovetop, Brew In A Bag, 2 vessel, 3 vessel, etc.. who cares?

But no need to jump in and choose a solution before you have tried it.

(we all felt this way, thinking we kind of got it but not quite sure until we tried. Then it kind of all makes sense and you feel more comfortable in the whole
-BIAB vs 3V discussion
-NoChill vs. copper chiller discussion
-where is Butters question)


In short?
Just jump in there with the minimum cost to give it a go, whatever that is for you.
40 Litre Birko urn or pot on BBQ, or pot on stove in the kitchen.
Whatever works as long as it makes you able to put crushed grains in warm water for a while, then boil hops in the resulting wort.
Then chill it before adding yeast ;)
Go for getting it 90% right, that is more than enough to get a good feel for the process.


It's a lot of fun!
Don't let the equipment discussion start with spending $600 on a plastic bucket with an element in it.
You might end up feeling cheated and never going back to the homebrew shop.
And that homebrew shop is really good, with their last Friday of the month meetups, Barry around for some really good beer judging advice, etc.


My 2c?
Go stovetop for a couple of brews to understand the process.
Then you will feel a lot more comfortable on modding an eski, getting an urn or whatever you feel is right for you.

Bjorn
 
think what you want to do!! also what you have got. If you want to brew once or twice a month and do doubles then getting small vessels will be worthless. But in saying that going with a 40lt urn and BIAB is a good cheap starter as you can use this urn as a HLT for you 3v set up later on! it will handle the water you need as your mash out can heat while your mashing and if you need to do step mashes then a cheap 20lt pot from bigw on your kettle burner will heat alot faster.

If you want to do singles then BIAB and a urn is a good way to start to if you want to go 3V you have your HLT as stated.

singles is good if you have time to brew alot and also want to have different beers all the time. doubles is good if you want to brew less often but you will be drinking the same beer more often, Also singles are good for cornies but if you have 50lt kegs then you need doubles, So as I say what do you want??

I brew doubles but with different yeasts, You can go a step further and no chill leave out the late additions and when you go to ferment take out a few lts of wort and boil and add the flavour and aroma hops then, If you do this then you can infact make 2 brews from a 50lt batch just add bittering additions and then use different hops when you go to ferment.

Also another thing is electric or gas, electric is cheaper but slower, gas is faster but cost a little more. The over ruling part I find and people always skip is can you run a full electric system?? a 3600w element will run on 1x 15amp circuits so if you plan to run 2 or more of these then you need 2 or more circuits, Then you have the pumps and other gear that may be connected to the circuit. I run gas and I cant run the dryer in my shed if any thing else is connected. I am future proofing that with a 40 amp circuit to the shed, where ATM I got a 15amp circuit running all the power in the house and the shed. I will do all the running of the wires myself but get a electrician to connect it. I dont have the money ATM but I want to do it right the first time.

Spent so much money trying to save money so do things cheap and small to figure out I gotto outlay more money to upgrade as it is not what I want or need. So really think what you want and buy to suit. A 50lt keg and a burner or a 40lt urn are a great MUST have parts as they WILL! be used when you upgrade. BIAB in eater upgrade when your ready and you will use them for the upgrade.
 
Spent so much money trying to save money so do things cheap and small to figure out I gotto outlay more money to upgrade as it is not what I want or need. So really think what you want and buy to suit. A 50lt keg and a burner or a 40lt urn are a great MUST have parts as they WILL! be used when you upgrade. BIAB in eater upgrade when your ready and you will use them for the upgrade.

That's about it really. An urn or a home made electric kettle will be an integral part of a 3v should you wish to upgrade later. Having just put a lot of thought and effort into a simple AG set-up 6 months back, and having now made my own electric kettle and 7 beer-tasting brews, all of which tasted like half decent beer, even if they weren't the beer I was expecting, you will not go wrong with an urn or if you have the time and inclination, a home made kettle for doing BIAB. Whichever route you take, it'll probably wind up costing the same, but I couldn't be happier with my home made kettle.

The only voice of dissent I'll add, is to get a chiller of some kind. I love my 30 plate mashmaster plate chiller. No chill seems to be easier at first glance, but after lurking here for a while, I decided chilling the wort was less effort and heartache, even for $130!

Have fun, make beer, play around.
 
Some fantastic points and advise here. Thanks guys.

At the moment what I want is something that I can upgrade overtime and a urn appears to be the logical next step. I'm a fan of single batches as I want to improve and try to make different and sometimes unique beers.
So my check list for my next step is:
Urn
Bag for BIAB
Cubes

Anything else I need to add for the direct next step from kit brewing? Eventually I get 3 tiered vessel but I want to go slowly, slowly at the moment so the finances arn't kicked in the arse but to also have everything upgradeable to usable for future plans.

it's also been mentioned to talk to my LHB, while I've tried talking to a few home brew stores, well two, and they have ether been to busy to uninterested in discussion. Hell maybe it's how I'm approching things with uncertanty.

What I also may propose, if I get approval from the minister for everything, is to purchase the items and then possibly have a brew day at my place. People interested in the BIAB can learn while old hats can help themselves to the beer. Then after a few weeks we meet up, I bring a keg of beer and we see the fruits of our labour. Just an idea if anyone in sydney is interested.

once again, thanks guys.
 
1-1.5m silicon hose.
Good digital thermometer.
Timer.
 

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