Using The Fresh Yeast Rich Krausen To Start A New Batch

[Pumpy]

I did not have enough yeast for two batches so I started one and two days later, skimmed off some of the krasen ,to add to the next batch

It was firing in no time .

Saves making a starter

Is there any disadvantages to this process?

Pumpy

 

[///]

Did you take the first skim? Standard UK practice, albeit the first skim has trub/proteins/other stuff and is know as known as 'the dirty skim'. THis usually gets chucked, with sucessive skims the ones to take (but no major bigger if you took the first lot...)

Mate, seems all you need is a beer engine and your living the real ale brewers life up their!

Scotty

 

[Pumpy]

Did you take the first skim? Standard UK practice, albeit the first skim has trub/proteins/other stuff and is know as known as 'the dirty skim'. THis usually gets chucked, with sucessive skims the ones to take (but no major bigger if you took the first lot...)

Mate, seems all you need is a beer engine and your living the real ale brewers life up their!

Scotty

Well there you go there is my first mistake , I did add the Dirty skim

Thanks for that Scotty

Pumpy

 

[buttersd70]

Did you take the first skim? Standard UK practice, albeit the first skim has trub/proteins/other stuff and is know as known as 'the dirty skim'. THis usually gets chucked, with sucessive skims the ones to take (but no major bigger if you took the first lot...)

Mate, seems all you need is a beer engine and your living the real ale brewers life up their!

Scotty

As scotty says, standard practice in commercial UK breweries is to discard the first skim....

In practice, on a HB level, what I've found is that as the crap tends to congregate around the edges near the fermenter wall, and due to the skimming being done by hand, in a smaller vessel than commercial practice, you can be much more selective in what you take than they would be on a larger scale; so it's no real issue at all doing the skim from the first formation, imo. I usually skim from the centre outwards, and stop about 3/4 of an inch before hitting the scum ring.

Some texts (such as Brewing Science and Practice), say that the first skim is possibly likely to be less flocculant in subsequent batches; however, I've never found that to be the case, myself, and have never had any issues getting perfectly clear beer with minimal effort.

The advantages imo far outweigh the possible disadvantages.....the yeast fires in no time, even with minimal pitching rates. It attenuates fully in no time flat....if I have a bitter in the low 1040's that takes more than 4 days, I'm surprised. It's easy to get the yeast; it's easy to be selective about what part of the krausen you take; even if you do get some trub etc mixed in, it's a hell of a lot less than what you'd get from harvesting the yeast from the bottom; you can pitch another batch in a new fermenter, using the same yeast, whilst still fermenting the first, if you choose to do so.

I've been top skimming all my English yeasts for ages. Best thing since sliced bread imo.

If you use a pitching calculator (MrMalty), just move the 'non yeast solids' (or whatever it's called) slider all the way down.

The main disadvantage is that I can blow a keg within 14 days of pitching the yeast. :blink:

 

[Screwtop]

I've been top skimming all my English yeasts for ages. Best thing since sliced bread imo.

What do you use to skim Butters? I have tried skimming a couple of times without great success, used a cup and took some of the top beer also, next attempt I used a sanitised plastic seive.

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[buttersd70]

What do you use to skim Butters? I have tried skimming a couple of times without great success, used a cup and took some of the top beer also, next attempt I used a sanitised plastic seive.

Cheers,

Screwy

I use a sanatised soup ladle, and skim into a sanatised jug...I try to leave as much of the green beer as I can, and just get the yeast. I then add a bit of cooled boiled water to the jug to thin it down, and bottle it. Let it settle, then pour off the excess liquid, and replace it with fresh.

The other day I sanatised a large spoon instead of the usual ladle, cos I wasn't paying attention....it was much harder to use.

edit: piccies.

 

[Pumpy]

So butters should we be getting rid of the 'Dirty skim' on all our brews ?

Pumpy :unsure:

 

[manticle]

I've done it once (top cropping). I keep meaning to get more into it.

Didn't know anything about dirty skim but I stored the yeast for a few weeks and it fired up and fermented out no trouble.
I also used a sanitised soup ladle and simply poured it through a sanitised funnel into a sanitised longneck. Everything was sanitised with sanitiser and was quite sanitary.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

There is nothing "wrong" with the dirty skim... its just all mixed in with coldbreak and hop resins etc etc. Stuff that will eventually stick to the sides and/or fall to the bottom. No biggie.

The practice of discarding first skim and then top cropping re-pitching yeast - avoids the scunge, avoids any issues with cropping super early yeast that is mutated for lower floculation or might be a different faster starting strain - and is so damn good and successful, that it is the reason why a lot of traditional brewers in the UK are able to re-pitch their yeast hundreds or thousands of times without horrific drift in yeast characteristics. This yeast is damn near super yeast and is basically the best start your next fermentation could get.

You are pushing it re-pitching a yeast collection from the bottom more than a few times, and even breweries that acid wash, usually only do it 8-10 times... with a good top cropping regimen you can keep it up pretty much forever

 

[buttersd70]

What TB said. The break, resins, etc, will tend to stick to the sides...which is why I avoid the sides, and don't go too close. I used to discard first skim...but can't be ar$ed anymore. My thought is, the alternative is collecting from the bottom, which is so packed with this stuff, that the comparatively tiny amount you get in the top isn't worth losing any sleep over.

As to how many times you can use it....well, I haven't counted. But I use 1469 in probably 75% of my beers. I bought it when it was first released, and I've only just a couple of weeks ago stepped up a fresh slant for the first time. Each crop usually gives enough yeast for several batches, so it's availability increases exponentialy....I have in the past, had such a surplus that I've given it away, cos it's more than I can use. I tend to only reuse probably 4 times each, then discard, not cos I need to, but because I have so much, I don't have any need to push further.....if you think about it, first pitch gives enough to pitch 3 more batches....each of these gives enough for 3 more batches....and so on. That's a hell of a lot of yeast by the time you pitch each one 3 or 4 times.

 

[Bribie G]

I've got a batch fermenting on Proculture Wood Ale and it still has a huge krausen, but I won't be able to brew till Monday and pitch on Tuesday. Would it be feasable to skim today and culture that up with some LDME in a 1L Schott bottle and keep it around 17 degrees in the same location as the 'parent' beer and pitch that on Tuesday? Or is it too much double handling and risk of infection? This Wood Ale is amazing and I want to get another batch of Landlord out quick smart.

Is that your naughty chair in the background, Butters?

 

[buttersd70]

I've got a batch fermenting on Proculture Wood Ale and it still has a huge krausen, but I won't be able to brew till Monday and pitch on Tuesday. Would it be feasable to skim today and culture that up with some LDME in a 1L Schott bottle and keep it around 17 degrees in the same location as the 'parent' beer and pitch that on Tuesday? Or is it too much double handling and risk of infection? This Wood Ale is amazing and I want to get another batch of Landlord out quick smart.

Is that your naughty chair in the background, Butters?

Yes, that's the chair I drain cubes on....it's a magical chair that lets all the nasty plasticisers escape out of the cube before use. h34r:

I wouldn't bother making up a starter for such a short wait....if you skim, you should be able to get enough yeast off the top to directly pitch at least 2 batches. I'd just skim it into a jug, then add just enough cooled boiled water to get a pouring consistency, then bottle it in a loosly capped pet and pop it in the fridge. Then when it's time to pitch, take it out of the fridge, pour off the excess liquid, add just enough water again to get a thick but pourable consistancy, and pitch it. I usually use around quarter of a cup or so, give or take.....as you can see in the piccie, I got about one and a half cups on a single skim.....

 

[Screwtop]

Yes, that's the chair I drain cubes on....it's a magical chair that lets all the nasty plasticisers escape out of the cube before use. h34r:

I wouldn't bother making up a starter for such a short wait....if you skim, you should be able to get enough yeast off the top to directly pitch at least 2 batches. I'd just skim it into a jug, then add just enough cooled boiled water to get a pouring consistency, then bottle it in a loosly capped pet and pop it in the fridge. Then when it's time to pitch, take it out of the fridge, pour off the excess liquid, add just enough water again to get a thick but pourable consistancy, and pitch it. I usually use around quarter of a cup or so, give or take.....as you can see in the piccie, I got about one and a half cups on a single skim.....

Right, thats my next project..................well...............one of 30 or so. Hate having a break in brewing the must-do and to-do lists just get longer.

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[arogers]

You are pushing it re-pitching a yeast collection from the bottom more than a few times, and even breweries that acid wash, usually only do it 8-10 times... with a good top cropping regimen you can keep it up pretty much forever

Hi TB, can you please elaborate on why using the trub will only work for a few times: is it mutation or something else?

 

[manticle]

If I'm not mistaken, it's because trub contains a lot of dead or otherwise unhealthy cells whereas krausen will contain loads of healthy ones.

 

[arogers]

Sweet... Good to know.

 

[RdeVjun]

I'll just relate my own recent experiences with top cropping- just brilliant they have been and I'd recommend the process as a simple and convenient means to keep a strain in production and a lot less hassle, plus the actual results in terms of fermentation have been nothing short of astounding.
Direct pitching from one fermenter to another is as simple as it gets and that's what I've been doing, obviously harvesting and storing it is another layer of complexity but no real biggie if you've ever mucked with starters.
I've been using 1469 exclusively of late and it isn't easy to source, so keeping it in production has meant ensuring I have some yeastcake in the fridge, with starters rolling though regularly as well and a fair bit of preparation etc. I usually knock out two or three smaller batches a week (mostly testing) and for the last few I've been able to just top crop from one batch to the next, and this is where the process has really simplified the yeast ranching aspect for me.
It also seems that this method is one of the quickest ways to inocculate a wort and get fresh batches kicked off and fermenting at a full head of steam in next to no time. All of them I have done now have been just a half a cup or so of day 3 or 4 first crop transferred directly from one fermenter to the next fresh one. They've all developed a full coverage of krausen within 12 to 24 hours, with a drop in SG of around 10- 15 points in that time too, so it really takes off quite rapidly and as noted earlier, develops terminal gravity in around four or five days. So for quick turnaround, it really can speed things up too, although other yeasts might struggle to match the West Yorkshire strain's performance. (BTW, I'll just leave it in primary for at least another week, more often two and then just rack on to priming sugar and bottle, WY clears brilliantly of its own accord, sometime I'll gelatine but only when I can be arsed.)
The batches that have been top crop harvested recover within hours, back to full coverage fairly smartly, although I've not been taking all that much, just enough to start a fresh batch. And when I see a full head of krausen in the fresh one show up just overnight, I know things are just humming along in both.
So, to anyone thinking of giving it a try, by all means do have a chop at it and I don't think you'll be disappointed!
Many thanks you guys as well for all the info and background on the process, it has really helped me with this immensely. :beerbang:

 

[bigbird]

sooo, does this seem pheasable?

I've got some S-05 at day 4 of primary at the moment. If I skim, let it settle, drain, then top up with cooled boiled water, store in the fridge and repitch within a week or two.... will that be OK?

Will I need to make a starter to "wake" it up again or will it be OK to directly pitch once it has warmed up?

 

[buttersd70]

sooo, does this seem pheasable?

I've got some S-05 at day 4 of primary at the moment. If I skim, let it settle, drain, then top up with cooled boiled water, store in the fridge and repitch within a week or two.... will that be OK?
Sounds fine

Will I need to make a starter to "wake" it up again or will it be OK to directly pitch once it has warmed up?
opinions vary. Some say directly pitch, others will innoculate with wort and pitch mebbe a couple hours later (or less), when it starts to show signs of activity.Personally, I do both, depending on mood, and have no particular preference. Depends on how confident you are with the yeasts healt, I guess.

 

[dr K]

A word of warning, before you get all misty eyed about top cropping yeasts, there just are not that many left, 1469 certainly is but many of the traditional english ale yeasts, due to those ridiculous inverted tin-man fermentors they use these days, have not only lost their heart but their top cropping ability.
So, a true top cropper (say 1469) will produce excellent but any old ale yeast, say US05 or even Ringwood will not, certainly not over a number of fermentations as the true top croppers will be true to style, the untrue will, by selection, become rapidly crap. If you do have a true top cropper keep it young and chipper and lock it with a zipper.

K