Using Distilled Water For Mashing

[hoppinmad]

I'm planning a Knappstein Lager clone and am thinking with such a light beer it would be a good idea to get the water profile right. My local water provider has said they can't give me with a water analysis so I am considering using my still to purify the water, then adding the required salts to achieve a Pilsen Czech profile. The only worry I have is that the pH is going to end up extremely low (apparently about 5.4) due to the carbonic acid that forms from the reaction of H2O and CO2.

Can I increase the pH without altering the water profile? Or is it really not a good idea to use distilled water?

 

[drsmurto]

I'm planning a Knappstein Lager clone and am thinking with such a light beer it would be a good idea to get the water profile right. My local water provider has said they can't give me with a water analysis so I am considering using my still to purify the water, then adding the required salts to achieve a Pilsen Czech profile. The only worry I have is that the pH is going to end up extremely low (apparently about 5.4) due to the carbonic acid that forms from the reaction of H2O and CO2.

Can I increase the pH without altering the water profile? Or is it really not a good idea to use distilled water?

Can you get your hands on some rainwater?

I ran my tank water thru an ICP-MS last year and its effectively a blank canvas. i use it for pilsners with no additions at all.

 

[kook]

The pH of water is largely irrelevant, except for sparging. Even then, it's not something to get overly concerned about unless you're fly sparging and are likely to oversparge.

You can buffer the pH without altering the water profile by using phosphates (such as "5.2 stabilizer").

I think your concern will actually be a high mash pH if you're using a load of pale malt, not a low mash pH. This can be adjusted with food grade acid. Or with acid malt, or maybe even through an appropriate step mash incorporating an acid rest.

 

[Fourstar]

I'm planning a Knappstein Lager clone and am thinking with such a light beer it would be a good idea to get the water profile right. My local water provider has said they can't give me with a water analysis so I am considering using my still to purify the water, then adding the required salts to achieve a Pilsen Czech profile. The only worry I have is that the pH is going to end up extremely low (apparently about 5.4) due to the carbonic acid that forms from the reaction of H2O and CO2.

Can I increase the pH without altering the water profile? Or is it really not a good idea to use distilled water?

If you are doing a pale 'czech pilsner/lager', check your local water report, my water is basically spot on the same as Pilsen direct from my tap (minus the chlorine). i fill up my stockpot, let her sit over night and brew away. the perfect water for czech pilsens. if im doing a germen pils, just add some sulphate to get her to around 150ppm or a dort would also need some carbonate.

Overall, an awesome base to work with. If you use distilled water, you will need to add back calcium, atleast 70ppm(for yeast health). My 1st choice would be calcium sulphate and go the road of a german pils.

 

[jonocarroll]

My local water provider has said they can't give me with a water analysis

If you are doing a pale 'czech pilsner/lager', check your local water report.

???? :blink:

 

[hoppinmad]

Can you get your hands on some rainwater?

I ran my tank water thru an ICP-MS last year and its effectively a blank canvas. i use it for pilsners with no additions at all.

I do have a couple of rainwater tanks, but I have been worried about using them since I don't have a first flush diverter or a filter on the outlet. That would mean all the crusty stuff on the roof ends up in the tank every time it rains... which isn't much here. I am in the country so the air is clean, but still there would be plenty of dust and bird droppings etc that end up in the tank

 

[kook]

Overall, an awesome base to work with. If you use distilled water, you will need to add back calcium, atleast 70ppm(for yeast health). My 1st choice would be calcium sulphate and go the road of a german pils.

Only Plzen's water doesn't have anywhere near that level of calcium.... Most quote < 10 ppm.

 

[Fourstar]

???? :blink:

Whoops, thats what happens when you skim read! :lol:

Only Plzen's water doesn't have anywhere near that level of calcium.... Most quote < 10 ppm.

Yes, very true. Pretty much everything is sub <7 ppm from what ive seen with alkalinity and hardness (of softness in their case) balances to a bees worth.

If you were adding calcium at my level you wouldn't be doing a Czech Pils anymore, which is why i said go the German Pils route. it will help your hops stand up too. Unless you tried to balance it with bicarbonates, but you would end up probably too alkaline for pils malt and screw your mash ph.

Distilled water is bad as your base mmmkay, you will have no profile whatsoever (water wise), unless you are doing extract, you really need some minerals. with extracts, your minerals will already be there in the DME/LME/goo!

 

[kook]

Distilled water is bad as your base mmmkay, you will have no profile whatsoever (water wise), unless you are doing extract, you really need some minerals. with extracts, your minerals will already be there in the DME/LME/goo!

Why is it bad? I use RO (virtually the same, trace minerals left) now, for that exact reason. I want no profile, so I can build my own depending on the style of beer I'm brewing. I just add back the minerals needed to the mash for the appropriate residual alkalinity, then add more minerals in the kettle to balance out the sulfate/chloride ratio (if required).

HoppinMad, another suggestion would be to use say 10-20% tap water, and the rest distilled. You'd still be guessing the mineral levels as you don't have a water report, but this would hopefully bring you quite soft water.

 

[hoppinmad]

Distilled water is bad as your base mmmkay, you will have no profile whatsoever (water wise), unless you are doing extract, you really need some minerals. with extracts, your minerals will already be there in the DME/LME/goo!

Yes sorry forgot to say it will be all grain. I have Beersmith which basically says I need to add between 0.1 to 0.3 grams of the various minerals/salts (for 23 litres of water) to achieve the profile. It was mainly the presence of carbonic acid that was my worry.

 

[kook]

Yes sorry forgot to say it will be all grain. I have Beersmith which basically says I need to add between 0.1 to 0.3 grams of the various minerals/salts (for 23 litres of water) to achieve the profile. It was mainly the presence of carbonic acid that was my worry.

Remember - some of them will need to be added to the mash rather than the HLT. Calcium carbonate for example - it's not solluable in water unless the pH is below a certain level.

As I said - personally I'd ignore the pH of the water, check this page for more info if you're really concerned:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-1.html

Namely the part down the bottom ("You would think that the pH of the water is important but actually it is not.").

edit: As soon as you add pale coloured malt to that water the pH is going to rise. I'd expect it to rise well above the recommended range unless you either buffer the pH with something like 5.2 stabiliser, use acidulated malt in the grist, or add minerals such as calcium chloride or calcium sulfate. Alternatively, you could use an acid rest (which would be the most authentic method) or use food grade acid to raise the mash pH to an appropriate level.

 

[Fourstar]

Why is it bad? I use RO (virtually the same, trace minerals left) now, for that exact reason. I want no profile, so I can build my own depending on the style of beer I'm brewing. I just add back the minerals needed to the mash for the appropriate residual alkalinity, then add more minerals in the kettle to balance out the sulfate/chloride ratio (if required).

I think elaboration is the key today, and im lacking it.
I meant exaclty what you said above. Distilled water is bad to be used as a base, by itself, with NO minerals. If used to build your own water however, its perfect!

 

[fraser_john]

I do have a couple of rainwater tanks, but I have been worried about using them since I don't have a first flush diverter or a filter on the outlet. That would mean all the crusty stuff on the roof ends up in the tank every time it rains... which isn't much here. I am in the country so the air is clean, but still there would be plenty of dust and bird droppings etc that end up in the tank

Don't know whether that matters too much when you boil it! I filter my rainwater though, so it would remove sediment. Distilling that much water would be quite a lot of effort to go to......?

 

[warra48]

I don't brew many Pilsners, but having said that, I have a BoPils lagering at present.

I fotunately have access to rainwater from my neighbour's tank.

I use about 90% rainwater, and 10% local water. Haven't run it through BeerSmith, but I reckon it's close enough to do the job for me.
What we are never told is whether the Plzen brewers manipulate their pristine local water. I guess if they can advertise pure water etc etc, it's probably a good marketing tool. I notice certain Aus breweries pretend their pristine water makes all the difference, but no one can tell me they don't add stuff to it before brewing.

If you are concerned about crap in your tank water, boil up a kettle full 2 or 3 days before brewing, let it cool and settle for a couple of days, and I'm sure you'll be sweet to go.

 

[Bribie G]

This mob obviously pump their water up from right under the footpath


According to the great Protz, due to the soft water, Pilsen brewers in the 19th Century had to do an acid rest but nowadays with well modified malts there's no need to do that. I have tank water but the last lot I used was a bit funky so I boiled it first, I have been using town water since but would like to attempt a Pilsener with the winter approaching and will try tank water again since we have had mega rain here and it's topped up again. I'll be interested to hear how you get on.

Personally I would add a very small amount of Magnesium Sulphate and Calcium Chloride for the yeasties, maybe just a quarter of a teaspoon each.

 

[hoppinmad]

Don't know whether that matters too much when you boil it! I filter my rainwater though, so it would remove sediment. Distilling that much water would be quite a lot of effort to go to......?

Hi John...

The distillation is not such a problem, as i can leave it to run by itself without constantly having to check gravities etc. Saying that, it does take quite a while to distill a 20 litre batch. I should probably look at investing in a carbon filter for one of the rainwater tanks, as it would save a lot of time!

 

[drsmurto]

I do have a couple of rainwater tanks, but I have been worried about using them since I don't have a first flush diverter or a filter on the outlet. That would mean all the crusty stuff on the roof ends up in the tank every time it rains... which isn't much here. I am in the country so the air is clean, but still there would be plenty of dust and bird droppings etc that end up in the tank

Live in the Adelaide Hills Hoppin so like you i collect rainwater without too many issues. Have you tasted it? You find that with most tanks the 'crud' settles to the bottom. You could fill up a few fermenters overnight and let it settle more if there are too many floaties! I dont have a first flush diverter and the water is crystal clear. I dont have any large trees close tot he house so birds dont sit on my roof. If you have bird shit on your roof then you may have a problem. Best to get your water tested for bio contamination, something that i didnt do. I used myself as the test subject!

What do you use your rain water for?

As for the lack of a water report, i beleive they are legally required to produce a 5 yearly average report that you should be able to get your hands on. If your local water supplier isnt playing ball contact the state authority. SA water provided me with the 5 years average for every reservoir supplying Adelaide and the hills.

I think elaboration is the key today, and im lacking it.
I meant exaclty what you said above. Distilled water is bad to be used as a base, by itself, with NO minerals. If used to build your own water however, its perfect!

Where is your evidence for this?

As kook said, a step mash regime or decoction schedule that included an acid rest would be fine.

I have made a bo pils using single infusion with my rain water which is effectively 'distilled'. No acid or protein rest. Turned out very nice IMO - 100% wey pils, 100% saaz. I have used step mashes/decoctions since then but more as experiments to see what differences these mash techniques bring to the beer.

 

[kook]

Personally I would add a very small amount of Magnesium Sulphate and Calcium Chloride for the yeasties, maybe just a quarter of a teaspoon each.

Presuming you're talking about a 19-23L batch, thats actually quite a lot At least a lot if you're talking in the context of Plzen water.

 

[geoffi]

I do have a couple of rainwater tanks, but I have been worried about using them since I don't have a first flush diverter or a filter on the outlet. That would mean all the crusty stuff on the roof ends up in the tank every time it rains... which isn't much here. I am in the country so the air is clean, but still there would be plenty of dust and bird droppings etc that end up in the tank

I only have rainwater here. No divertor, just a basic mesh filter and a cartridge filter on the pump. I have no hesitation in using the water, possum poo and all. Hell, it comes out of the tap nice and clear and tastes great. I drink it and have never had a problem. Why would I worry about using it in brewing where I'll be boiling the shit out of it (quite literally)?

It is a superb blank canvas for brewing, though. I can add salts depending on what I'm brewing to create my own water profile. Or just brew away and the result is still good.

 

[Leigh]

I have made a bo pils using single infusion with my rain water which is effectively 'distilled'.

Not wanting to get into an argument, but having run many tank waters through GCMS and GCICP, it is far from "distilled". Concentrations are obviously location dependent, but city is not necessarily better than country and vice versa...