Using Distilled Water For Mashing

[drsmurto]

Not wanting to get into an argument, but having run many tank waters through GCMS and GCICP, it is far from "distilled". Concentrations are obviously location dependent, but city is not necessarily better than country and vice versa...

As stated in a previous post, my rainwater was run thru an ICP-MS. All levels were less than 5ppm with most falling below the detection limits.

Agree, concentrations are very location dependant. Trees, wildlife, flight paths, industrial pollutants etc etc etc will all impact on rainwater quality.

My use of the term 'distilled' within quotation marks was obviously far too subtle a reference for how the water gets to my tank in the first place...... nerdy scientist humour isnt for everyone

 

[warra48]

Given the age of this world, I'd say by now most, if not all, the world's stock of water must have been "distilled" at some time or other.
After all, what else is rain but vapourised water dropping back to earth. It has to get up into clouds somehow!

I've not tested my local rain water, but seeing as we don't have heavy industry here, and only a few commercial flights in and out each day, I'd say it's pretty pure.

 

[jonocarroll]

Given the age of this world, I'd say by now most, if not all, the world's stock of water must have been "distilled" at some time or other.
After all, what else is rain but vapourised water dropping back to earth. It has to get up into clouds somehow!

Careful now - 70% of the world's fresh water is in Antarctica. It's not exactly 'going through the cycle' there is it? I get your point though. 100% of the atoms larger than helium come from stellar explosions. I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from that though.

Someone mentioned that it would take a lot of effort to get 23L of distilled water - my Pura-Tap (or similar) has an 11L capacity, fills in an hour through 2 filters and RO to give what I'm told (may be wrong) is close enough to distilled water (assuming good filter condition). Wouldn't take too much effort or time, really.

 

[warra48]

Careful now - 70% of the world's fresh water is in Antarctica. It's not exactly 'going through the cycle' there is it? I get your point though. 100% of the atoms larger than helium come from stellar explosions. I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from that though.

Someone mentioned that it would take a lot of effort to get 23L of distilled water - my Pura-Tap (or similar) has an 11L capacity, fills in an hour through 2 filters and RO to give what I'm told (may be wrong) is close enough to distilled water (assuming good filter condition). Wouldn't take too much effort or time, really.

You are correct, and I agree.
But it begs the question, how did the stock of fresh water end up in Antarctica? :icon_cheers:

 

[jonocarroll]

You are correct, and I agree.
But it begs the question, how did the stock of fresh water end up in Antarctica? :icon_cheers:

Grrr. I hate that use of 'begs the question'. Anyhoo - at some point you have to address the question of how did the water end up on the planet at all. This was kind of my point with the heavier atoms.

For some reason, your second sentence just made me think of Arrested Development; "Yeah, well where did the lighter fluid come from?" (click for animation)

 

[Leigh]

The humour wasn't lost on me Dr Smurto, although I had forgotten your previous post by the time I got to that one

Just pointing out that rain water isn't necessarily pure, and pollutants can come from anywhere...

So my point is, if you have a tank, and have not had the water tested, I would not assume that it is "pure" or necessarily any better than tap water

 

[Fourstar]

Where is your evidence for this?

Hey Smurto,

I don't think ive been helping myself today with my choice of words and rushing my posts. (probably because ive been spending all day rebuilding my PC ripping my hair out and quickly punching out posts in between.)

What i mean to say is if you are brewing all grain, with straight distilled water (no trace mineral content) and no mineral additions you are hampering your brewing process in any of the following ways:

- You can balls up your mash ph. - your efficiency will turn to crap.
- There no calcium for yeast health so you may end up with stuck ferments, poor attenuation etc.
- No sulfate for hop rounding/accentuation.
- No carbonates/alkalinity for dark malts and no sodium to round out malt flavours and accentuate sweetness.


For Example,

A IPA @ 5SRM 45IBU 1.055, standard 60min infusion @ 64deg. correct pitching rates brewed with with specs of:
Sulfate 200ppm
Calcium 70ppm
Sodium 10ppm
Cloride 10ppm
Carbonate 20ppm
Mag 15ppm

You will have pronounced bitterness, smooth and rounded, malt will be taking a backseat on this one. Coupled with good yeast health with the calcium content and slightly hard water.

Is better than a IPA @ 5SRM 45IBU 1.055, standard 60min infusion @ 64deg correct yeast pitching rates brewed with with specs of:
Sulfate - 1ppm
Calcium - 0ppm
Sodium - 2ppm
Cloride - 1ppm
Carbonate - 1ppm
Mag - 2ppm

The hop character will be lacking and will be more malt focused. due to the soft water. you run the risks of stuck ferments and or attenuation issues. It may ferment ok, it may not. Your efficiency will be ok if your water ph is fine for the malt you use.


I may be wrong, ive only been into water modification for the past month or so. I'd be more than happy for someone to 'school' me if im incorrect on this.... as i would be fluffing up my own brewing process aswell as nothers if im giving incorrect infromation. Majority of my knowledge i got from Howtobrew.

So far my beers have told the tale and i can taste differences in the hop roundness of the highly hopped ales oim brewing. ALLOT smoother. I'm also soon to test my efficiency woes with dark beers. (probably because i have such soft water and piss poor conversion at times.)

 

[warrenlw63]

I'm also soon to test my efficiency woes with dark beers. (probably because i have such soft water and piss poor conversion at times.)

Easy way to avoid this (if it's dark/roasted specialty malts) is to just add them during the mashout. Your sacc. rest is essentially then just done with pale grains.

Warren -

 

[Fourstar]

Presuming you're talking about a 19-23L batch, thats actually quite a lot At least a lot if you're talking in the context of Plzen water.

it would be more like, dip your finger in the packet, shake it off, and swirl it in the hlt!

Easy way to avoid this (if it's dark/roasted specialty malts) is to just add them during the mashout. Your sacc. rest is essentially then just done with pale grains.
Warren -

Never thought of this Warren, interesting! What about the lack of carbonates and balance of hardness? I always feel my dark ale are lacking something and the only thing i haven't done to them yet is water adjustment.

 

[Darren]

I have always wondered about the mystery additions to RO/rain water. What effect does the mineral content of the water that the grain was malted in have??
cheers

Darren

 

[technocat]

I have never used mineral additions making Lager's with our tank water which is fairly benign and it turns out fine . However making APA's IPA's and European Ale's I do use Gypsum, Chalk, Epsom and anything needed to emulate the water profile of the beer made in a particular region. IMHO I feel these additions are important to these styles of beer and do make a lot of difference. The Cascade Brewery in Hobart has been for years extolling the virtues of the waters that "cascade" down the sides of Mt. Wellington collecting minerals along the way and while their Ales haven't been to bad I for one think that their Lagers are pretty ordinary.


Cheers. :chug:

 

[kook]

What i mean to say is if you are brewing all grain, with straight distilled water (no trace mineral content) and no mineral additions you are hampering your brewing process in any of the following ways:

- You can balls up your mash ph. - your efficiency will turn to crap.
- There no calcium for yeast health so you may end up with stuck ferments, poor attenuation etc.
- No sulfate for hop rounding/accentuation.
- No carbonates/alkalinity for dark malts and no sodium to round out malt flavours and accentuate sweetness.

<snip IPA stuff>

I'm not Smurto here either - but I think you're missing his point. Or maybe I'm missing the entire point of this thread. Noone was talking about an IPA. The OP wants to brew a Czech Pils. He wants to start with distilled water - and add trace amounts (< 10ppm) of minerals to mimic soft Plzen water. His concern was regarding the pH of the water - which is from my understand, largely irrelevant.

With regard to your first point - you can fix the mash pH through a few different methods as I've posted earlier. The most traditional method would be using an acid rest. Others include the use of acidulated malt, food grade acid, or phosphate based buffers.

Won't the malt contribute calcium (along with other essential minerals such as magnesium) to the wort to assist with yeast health? If this isn't the case, why don't Pilseners brewed with soft water end up with stuck ferments and poor attenuation?

As for the last two statements - I don't see what they have to do with a Czech Pils ??

 

[Thirsty Boy]

In a lot of cases you really should be adding calcium back into water that lacks it - someone mentioned it earlier. There is a lot of talk about the famously soft pilsen water, and no talk at all about whether the brewers there actually add anything to it or not. For all we know, its the "wonderfully soft local water" and a jug full of calcium chloride that makes a traditional Boh, pils.

It might not be - but ho many breweries would rather have you think about the fistfull of chemical they tossed in vs the "purity of the local water supply"

Anyway - you aren't trying to brew the same way as the guys in Pilsen - you are trying to brew a great bohemian pilsner. And in my opinion you will have a better chance of doing that if you have enough calcium in your water to do what it needs to in the mash, kettle and fermenter.

Add a little (whatever your software tells you to get to at least what they have in Pilsen) calcium chloride and calcium sulphate in equal amounts. That keeps you chloride/sulphate ratio in balance and gives you the extra calcium. It wont be a lot.

Its one of those things - it might work perfectly well with lower levels of Calcium - but you are sure there isn't a problem if you add the stuff in the right amounts.

 

[kook]

Add a little (whatever your software tells you to get to at least what they have in Pilsen) calcium chloride and calcium sulphate in equal amounts. That keeps you chloride/sulphate ratio in balance and gives you the extra calcium. It wont be a lot.

Isn't that exactly what the OP was planning on doing? :unsure:

"I am considering using my still to purify the water, then adding the required salts to achieve a Pilsen Czech profile."

 

[Fourstar]

I dont know kook, i think we are all getting a littel off topic here with the broad specturm water modification has. I was just covering smurtos Q of my reasoning behind NOT using distilled water to brew with without any modification. an IPA was the 1st thing i thaught of when adding something to enhance it.. suflate.

For a german pils, yes i would still add some calcum to the mash, probably calcium sulphate as i have already pointed out, for a czech pils, for my soft water i would keep it rock stock striaght out of the tap as i know my water report. ive brewed a czech pils before with straight abbotsford tap water and it was fantastic, nice and rich, bready pils character. im doing a Helles this weekend too, as you know it follows the lines of a czech pils but with hard water, just balanced and a assertive clean malt character over a bready rich one. im balacing mine out with 1tsp of gypsum and 1.5tsp of calcium carbonate to get me:

85ppm calcium
83ppm carbonate
85ppm sulphate
<7ppm mag, chloride, sodium

Should be good.

either way i think the answer for today is: know your water before you want to brew light lagers.. or brew them and taste them..

if it aint rich and bready for a standard infusion mash... its probably harder water than you expect, do a decoction or find out your water report.. if its rich and bready, you might be on the money.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Isn't that exactly what the OP was planning on doing? :unsure:

"I am considering using my still to purify the water, then adding the required salts to achieve a Pilsen Czech profile."

Yep - I was more or less agreeing with him.

Just emphasizing the fact that calcium is important to brewing and that untreated rainwater or even melbourne tap water has less than an ideal amount. The guys in Pilsen would probably treat it, and in my opinion probably treat their own water. Just because Pilsen, or Burton on trent or Dublin has a particular water profile doesn't mean that thats exactly what the brewers are using.

I would personally add Ca in to about 50ppm - but thats only me, doesn't mean I'm right

TB

 

[katzke]

If you are going to use distilled add some yeast nutrient also. You will be missing the other important minerals and metals for good yeast and mash health.

 

[kook]

If you are going to use distilled add some yeast nutrient also. You will be missing the other important minerals and metals for good yeast and mash health.

Agreed - zinc in particular. I've taken to adding WYeast nutrient to all my beers now.

Just emphasizing the fact that calcium is important to brewing and that untreated rainwater or even melbourne tap water has less than an ideal amount. The guys in Pilsen would probably treat it, and in my opinion probably treat their own water. Just because Pilsen, or Burton on trent or Dublin has a particular water profile doesn't mean that thats exactly what the brewers are using.

Fair enough - everything I'd read indicated they didn't treat (at least Prazdroj historically).

Another thing worth mentioning is that in many cases breweries have their own water source which may not be the same as the water profile for a city or towns water supply.

I use Palmers spreadsheet personally. I put in the mash colour, and then add salts in the mash to get the appropriate level of calcium and appropriate residual alkalinity. If necessary, I add additional salts in the boil to achieve the correct sulfate/chloride balance depending on the beer style.

 

[drsmurto]

I was simply answering the OPs question re tank water and a Czech Pils.

Any other discussions on mineral additions are wildly off topic

Agree, yeast nutrient would be useful unless you are using a galvanised tank and you likely have more than enough Zn!

 

[katzke]

I was simply answering the OPs question re tank water and a Czech Pils.

Any other discussions on mineral additions are wildly off topic

Agree, yeast nutrient would be useful unless you are using a galvanised tank and you likely have more than enough Zn!

But you also need some copper and Magnezium is important to yeast also.