Users Of The "no Chiller Method"

[domonsura]

****...getting a little territorial for a beer forum aren't we? It's called discussion Barge. OPEN discussion. Not childish your side vs my side, stay out of my clubhouse behaviour.
Even though I chill, if I want to read this thread in an effort to understand more about what makes the NC method appealing to so many, and see if there are any elements that I can add to MY knowledge base about beer, I will. If I want to point out that wasting water is a choice, not a necessity of the chill method, I will.

Please sling off at darren through PM if you must rather than subject us all to it. That was MY point.

Not every person reading this thread will be a NC'er or a potential convert. That doesn't mean we aren't interested about how it all works/doesn't work for our own information. That's the way this all works.

 

[Barge]

fair enough.

and fwiw i agree about water wastage being a non-issue, although i'd need to buy a pump as well as a chiller.

you had something new to add in your post where darren continually pushes a holier than thou approach which deserves to be publicly commented on

 

[browndog]

If you're that serious about water conservation that you are willing to take any more risks with infection than your beer is already exposed to, you should have water tanks anyway - if only a couple of water drums for your brewing use! The two go hand in hand as far as I'm concerned.
]

All well and good if it rained enough to fill them. I don't know what the water restrictions are like in Adelaide, but here in SE QLD they are very tight and getting worse and FWIW I would be more than happy to use a chiller, if there were any advantages to me.

cheers

Browndog

 

[Screwtop]

At the risk of throwing myself under the bus, and to draw this discussion off on a tangent but still on topic.

Disclaimer: I am a sometimes no chiller

When it comes to plastics, I found that the blue so called food grade was safe for storage of drinking water (hot and cold), the white was safe drinking water contact and cold only. Went to Clark Rubber looking for hose and was told if your caravan water hose is white it's fine for drinking water but if the water is going to be sitting in the hose for days in the sun, you should use the blue hose. Sceptic that I am, checked the labels on the hose reels, "he was right".

Naturally this leads to more questions. Lets not continue with the botulism thing, think we have enough proof that it's rare but well may occur given the miriad of different processes used in the home brewing situation. If all home brewers used a strict process of suitable sanitisation and PH control the risk still would only be minimised, not eliminated. It appears so far that some of the infections have not resulted in sickness as some have fermented the wort and drunk the beer. Don't know if botulism infection would actually be noticeable in any case, wild yeast infections are most likely to be responsible for producing gas and swelling the cubes.

What I want to know is: If you have had a cube swell, or even fail/crack/split which type of cube was it, white or blue? (Not a question for the commercial producers just those of us using the store bought cubes/jerrys)

 

[FNQ Bunyip]

At the risk of throwing myself under the bus, and to draw this discussion off on a tangent but still on topic.

Disclaimer: I am a sometimes no chiller


What I want to know is: If you have had a cube swell, or even fail/crack/split which type of cube was it, white or blue? (Not a question for the commercial producers just those of us using the store bought cubes/jerrys)

Disclaimer: I have never no chilled in a jerry, I have put hot wort in my fermenter and put in the fridge o/night to pitch first thing next morn.....(it worked)


I've looked in here a few times and have given it some consideration and thought that it might be a way to give a few locals who wil never change to AG a decent beer to take home and ferment out ...

Screwy this is an interesting question as to witch jerry ?? Look forward to seeing the results that come in...

cheers

 

[yardy]

Disclaimer: I have never no chilled in a jerry, I have put hot wort in my fermenter and put in the fridge o/night to pitch first thing next morn.....(it worked)

FNQ,

interested to know how you sealed the fermenter from nasties whilst in the fridge, wouldn't using an airlock just draw the water into the wort as it cooled ?

Cheers

 

[geoffi]

When it comes to plastics, I found that the blue so called food grade was safe for storage of drinking water (hot and cold), the white was safe drinking water contact and cold only.

Ever seen a commercial wort kits sold in a blue cube? Are they breaking the law or something?

 

[FNQ Bunyip]

FNQ,

interested to know how you sealed the fermenter from nasties whilst in the fridge, wouldn't using an airlock just draw the water into the wort as it cooled ?

Cheers

Hey Yardy, Well it might not be the best method , it did lower the level in the air lock but not all the way .. I spray no rince all over the place .. wipe out my brewing fridge and my brew box with no rince every time I open the doors. spray a bit more around , all over the fermenter , every where .. I use way too much of the stuff but in this enviroment you need to be careful..

I've read that people have bought a liter of Phos acid and it lasts them years , I just bought my second Lt this year.. Ha ha but its cheep insurance...


Cheers

 

[browndog]

I rack straight from the kettle into the fermenter and let it cool overnight then chuck it in the fridge in the morning and pitch that afternoon. I've done 60 or so NCs now and never had a problem. I don't have an airlock though, just a thermowell.

cheers

Browndog

 

[user 1153]

interested to know how you sealed the fermenter from nasties whilst in the fridge, wouldn't using an airlock just draw the water into the wort as it cooled ?

I no chill straight into the fermenter.

My method for stopping nasties entering the airlock hole is to totally soak a small piece of cloth in prox and then just place it over the hole. Air will naturally be sucked in overnight but at least it has to work it's way through the prox.

Has been working fine for me like this for all my brews.

 

[user 1153]

Ever seen a commercial wort kits sold in a blue cube? Are they breaking the law or something?

Maybe they chill the wort down to room temp (or even lower) before putting it into the cube?

 

[Stuster]

Maybe they chill the wort down to room temp (or even lower) before putting it into the cube?

It's hot when it's cubed by the commercial brewers. There would be far too many issues with contamination if the wort was cooled first.

 

[SJW]

Sorry about arking up with my pervious post.

What I want to know is: If you have had a cube swell, or even fail/crack/split which type of cube was it, white or blue? (Not a question for the commercial producers just those of us using the store bought cubes/jerrys)

Mine was a white one but it has the triangle 2 on it. I put my first NC infection down to 2 things.
1- The wort was in the kettle for too long after the boil, approx 30min,
2- The cube then went straight in the pool and crash chilled.

In over 30 NC's now I would say that its not best practice but its best FOR ME. Talking to MHB yesterday and he said that in the 100's of ESB fresh wort packs he has sold only one or two have swelled.
So I think before anyone gets on this thread and bangs on about something they have not had a go at, they should have a go.

Steve

 

[warrenlw63]

So I think before anyone gets on this thread and bangs on about something they have not had a go at, they should have a go.

Steve

Couldn't have put it better Steve. Let the brewer who chills his/her wort in the normal manner and has had no infections whatsoever cast the first stone.

Provided the NC cubes are treated in the way manner as say a regular fermenter in terms of cleaning and sanitation I can't see where the problem lies.

Warren -

 

[deebee]

Your drawing a long bow there pal :angry:
I would put any of my brews up against your any day. NC or other.

Not sure how you took offence at my thread. So relax my friend: I am sure your beers are fantastic and genitals of gigantic proportions.

I was just echoing the comment that infections very often go unnoticed in amateur brewed beer but suggesting that it is probably more common in those who have brewed less often. I learned to recognise infected beers by making a few, but haven't had one for a while and none since I starting NCing.

I am always suspicious of posts, usually supporting a less-than-disciplined brewing technique, along the lines of "Bin doin' this for 15 years and never ever had a single infection..." I don't recognise that flavour of posting amongst the no chillers who all seem pretty dedicated to the craft and genuinely want to investigate this technique of brewing.

Although he dips into sarcasm and disdain too much, unwittingly paints himself as a bit of a wally and generally treats this as sport, Darren's comments are what have driven this debate and forced the no chillers to really check out whether no chilling is legit. So good on him.


DB

 

[SJW]

Sorry Deebee, I made a mistake that has been fixed. It was not your post but Darrens. Ross PM'ed be too to ask what I was doing. Sorry mate. All my confusion is directed at Darren.
Boy don't I feel like a DICK

Steve

 

[PostModern]

What you really have missed about my original comments on the no-chill method was that SPOILAGE organisms (including C. botulinum) were more likely to be a problem. I notice the growing number of posters in the "Disasters" thread is growing. I believe I predicted that. I suspect it will continue to grow

My other concern was that some guys were going for extended storage of NC beer. Again this is frought with problems.

All of those "disasters" are new no chillers doing the wrong thing. People opening the cube after it's chilled to take a gravity reading, people leaving headspace and not inverting the cube to pasteurise the lid and top of the cube, people chucking the cube into a pool so that pasteurisation temps are not maintained for long enough...

Botulism Spores may well survive at up to 130C so the no chill method is not effective at destroying them in the cube. But my boil never goes above about 105C in the kettle. Surely that's a more likely place to harbour botulism? I never sanitise my kettle, but I do sanitise my cubes with three different chemicals over time, as well as 90C wort for more than an hour. Is it time to start the no kettle method? Only wort boiled in a pressure vessel is safe? Sanitise your kettles before and after use?

 

[deebee]

Sorry Deebee, I made a mistake that has been fixed. It was not your post but Darrens. Ross PM'ed be too to ask what I was doing. Sorry mate. All my confusion is directed at Darren.
Boy don't I feel like a DICK

Steve

No offence taken. And now I feel like a bit of a dick and hope my comeback doesn't seem to dinkum. Should have recognised that it was more likely directed at Darren.

cheers :icon_cheers:

 

[warrenlw63]

No offence taken. And now I feel like a bit of a dick and hope my comeback doesn't seem to dinkum. Should have recognised that it was more likely directed at Darren.

cheers :icon_cheers:

Possible appeasement was reached with the mere mention of gigantic genitals deebee... it's a universal currency. :lol:

Warren -

 

[bigfridge]

Talking to MHB yesterday and he said that in the 100's of ESB fresh wort packs he has sold only one or two have swelled.

Steve

Hi Steve,

You just need to be a little careful with your wording there otherwise you will give the wrong impression.

Mark has sold thousands of fresh wort packs and none of them have had an infection problem. These are commercially produced and are packaged using the same sterile techniques used by jam and baked bean makers.

At the recent HAG brewday, I believe that a few of the cubes that they filled became infected but they were not packaged using the same materials and processes that a commercial Wort Pack brewer would use. When dealing with brewers wort the margin for error is small and obviously the steps taken to clean the cubes and re-fill them exceeded that margin on the few that became infected.

Thanks
Dave