Users Of The "no Chiller Method"

[deebee]

Assuming the other components are extracted proportionally, the beer contains more than 25 times the oil required to kill botulism .

Botulism is not a problem unless you are making unhopped beers.

Wooohooo. This is the sort of explicit categorical certainty I can dig.

Does Darren still read these threads? Is there a comeback to this?

 

[PostModern]

Wooohooo. This is the sort of explicit categorical certainty I can dig.

Does Darren still read these threads? Is there a comeback to this?

I'm pretty sure he refuted this study the first time it came up.

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

I'm pretty sure he refuted this study the first time it came up.

...and he's been a bit quiet recently. I wonder if... h34r:

 

[deebee]

I have done about half a dozen no chill brews and all is good. There is one obvious advantage to no chill that I can't remember reading in these 60 odd pages and that is in pitching the yeast.

I aim for 25 litres post boil. About 24 litres goes into my 20 litre jerry (!) and the last spare litre goes into a hot sterilised jar. I use that spare wort to step up my starter. When the starter is ready to pitch I put it into the fermenting fridge with the jerry. About a day later, when the temps come together, I pitch the yeast.

Instead of timing the starter to be ready on brew day, I just wait till it is ready before pitching it. The yeast get accustomed to the exact wort they will soon be fermenting and all temperatures are stabilised and uniform and comfortable for the yeast.

I did my first NC lager last weekend and realised there was none of that stress about getting the wort to the right temps in the right time frame. Just dial up the temp you want, come back the next day and pitch it into a clean fermenter.

 

[Darren]

...and he's been a bit quiet recently. I wonder if... h34r:

Hahahha you guys are so humorous.

What you really have missed about my original comments on the no-chill method was that SPOILAGE organisms (including C. botulinum) were more likely to be a problem. I notice the growing number of posters in the "Disasters" thread is growing. I believe I predicted that. I suspect it will continue to grow

My other concern was that some guys were going for extended storage of NC beer. Again this is frought with problems.

As for hop oils killing CB spores, I have no evidence that it does or doesnt. If they were such good anti-microbial agents then they would be more commonly used in medicines. I suspect the data has been produced by the same people that profess that herbal medicines are "cure-alls" too.

I wonder how many of you "no-chillers" could tell the difference between infected/non-infected beer? That might seem funny to you but I am always amazed when judging beers at competitions how many beers are obviously infected but the competitor still entered it, probably thinking it was the best thing since sliced bread


FWIW, I have always been a NC of sorts for lagers. I get the beer down to the 20 C mark then chill the rest in the fridge for 24hrs then pitch.


Some men you just can't teach

cheers

Darren

 

[deebee]

I wonder how many of you "no-chillers" could tell the difference between infected/non-infected beer?

I have long suspected this is true of homebrewers generally. But no chillers seem to come from the more dedicated end of amateur brewing and most have probably brewed enough to tell the difference.

At least with no chill you seem to get a clear symptom of infection (swelling cube) before you waste a starter on it.

 

[Stuster]

I wonder how many of you "no-chillers" could tell the difference between infected/non-infected beer? That might seem funny to you but I am always amazed when judging beers at competitions how many beers are obviously infected but the competitor still entered it, probably thinking it was the best thing since sliced bread

Nice attitude to no-chillers there, Dazza. <_<

A very important role for competitions is in helping brewers identify problems with their beers. If the brewer is not sure what is wrong with their beer, this is a great way to get objective feedback on it. Do you have any evidence that the beers you picked as infected were no-chill beers?

I'm not sure if you followed braufrau's links , but the first one doesn't seem like a site that's dedicated to cure-all herbal nonsense to me. Here's another one, from here.

[0023] It has been reported in U. S. Patent No. 6,251, 461 that hop extracts including a mixture of beta-acids and alpha-acids and hop extracts including beta- acids and no alpha acids provide inhibitory activity of Clostridium botulinum and Clostridium difficile spores in broth media. In particular, the hop extracts produced inhibitory activity towards eight Clostridium botulinum strains at a concentration as low as 1 ppm. Similarly, spores of Clostridium diffcile strains were inhibited by the hop extracts at concentrations as low as 1 ppm.

So that's a US patent that shows that 1IBU inhibits botulism spore activity. Now, what evidence do you have that this is not true?

 

[Zizzle]

I suspect you are wasting your time there Stuster.

I think he applies this philosophy to himself:

Some men you just can't teach

 

[SJW]

I wonder how many of you "no-chillers" could tell the difference between infected/non-infected beer? That might seem funny to you but I am always amazed when judging beers at competitions how many beers are obviously infected but the competitor still entered it, probably thinking it was the best thing since sliced bread

Your drawing a long bow there pal :angry:
I would put any of my brews up against your any day. NC or other.

 

[SJW]

Nice attitude to no-chillers there, Dazza.

Who is this Dazza guy :blink:

 

[Stuster]

I suspect you are wasting your time there Stuster.

I think he applies this philosophy to himself:

True. I shall resist in future.

 

[Darren]

Nice attitude to no-chillers there, Dazza.
A very important role for competitions is in helping brewers identify problems with their beers. If the brewer is not sure what is wrong with their beer, this is a great way to get objective feedback on it. Do you have any evidence that the beers you picked as infected were no-chill beers?


Stuster,

No evidence what so ever, just an observation that MANY think their beers are fine enough to enter in a comp. Chill or no chill doesnt matter if they are infected.

I'm not sure if you followed braufrau's links , but the first one doesn't seem like a site that's dedicated to cure-all herbal nonsense to me. Here's another one, from here.
So that's a US patent that shows that 1IBU inhibits botulism spore activity. Now, what evidence do you have that this is not true?

No didnt follow the links . The patent clearly says inhibits botulism, surely doesnt say destroys or kills. I have absolutely no evidence and if that is evidence enough for you then you are a bigger fool than I took you for. I donot remember ever saying that hop oils could not inhibit CB growth. I do doubt how effective it would be after repeated exposure and adaptation :huh:

Botulism is a very rare bacteria. If you guys wish to increase your chances of getting it, who am I to stop you.

Do any of you "no-chillers" have a valid reason as to why wort has been CHILLED for eons now and why suddenly because a couple of Aussiehomebrewers show that beer can be made without chilling, we should all adopt that as best practice?

cheers

Darren

 

[blackbock]

Do any of you "no-chillers" have a valid reason as to why wort has been CHILLED for eons now and why suddenly because a couple of Aussiehomebrewers show that beer can be made without chilling, we should all adopt that as best practice?

cheers

Darren

Hi

I make no claims as to the safety or otherwise of the NC method, however it seems to me that there are several valid reasons why it is a good method:

1) You don't have to buy/make/store/clean a chiller.
2) You don't consume any additional water to chill
3) You can brew as often as you like, storing the wort without need to ferment immediately
4) Seems to follow the KISS principle.

 

[Barge]

... who am I to stop you.

... we should all adopt that as best practice?

cheers

Darren

You're the only one preaching to the 'heathens' Darren. I suggest you go comb one out as opposed to constantly monitoring a thread in which you have made your point (repeatedly) and have little further to add.

 

[browndog]

Do any of you "no-chillers" have a valid reason as to why wort has been CHILLED for eons now and why suddenly because a couple of Aussiehomebrewers show that beer can be made without chilling, we should all adopt that as best practice?

Hi Darren,
Back before there was refridgeration, they would have been hard pressed to crash chill their wort hey, also with commercial breweries of today and days of yore, they brewed in volumes that left to cool on it's own, would take days to get down to room temp so from a commercial point of view you need to chill the wort ASAP. I don't think I have ever heard anyone spruiking NC as "best practice" however in these days of severe water shortages, I can forsee a day when it will become a neccessity. Better start practicing now !

cheers

Browndog

 

[Darren]

Browndog,

The used "steamships" to rapidly cool if it was too hot or snow 8).


Nice informative post Barge! Glad you could add to the discussion.

cheers

Darren

 

[Barge]

Browndog,

The used "steamships" to rapidly cool if it was too hot or snow 8).

Better check the Ebay thread for a steamship then! Seriously Darren, If you act like a smartarse, calling people fools and treating us like arrant children, don't imagine you to expect much more of a response

HTFU :icon_cheers:

 

[domonsura]

Hi Darren,
Back before there was refridgeration, they would have been hard pressed to crash chill their wort hey, also with commercial breweries of today and days of yore, they brewed in volumes that left to cool on it's own, would take days to get down to room temp so from a commercial point of view you need to chill the wort ASAP. I don't think I have ever heard anyone spruiking NC as "best practice" however in these days of severe water shortages, I can forsee a day when it will become a neccessity. Better start practicing now !

cheers

Browndog

Technical infection discussions aside, when a time comes along that I can't scrape 150 litres of water together to move from one drum to another to do my chilling with (note I said moving not using), then society has collapsed, all rainfall has stopped and the end is nigh.

This constant reference towards water wastage is pure scaremongering BS perpetuated by those who can't be bothered getting a couple of water drums to supply their chiller, in doing so making a socially responsible decision to conserve water. If you're that serious about water conservation that you are willing to take any more risks with infection than your beer is already exposed to, you should have water tanks anyway - if only a couple of water drums for your brewing use! The two go hand in hand as far as I'm concerned.
Despite my constant use of a chiller I haven't wasted a single litre of water chilling my beer for a couple of years now, and it annoys me more than a little when (some of) you NC guys constantly get on your high horses about chillers being a waste of water because in THIS brewery at least it's just not true. Neither the method or the equipment are inefficient in the slightest, it's the action of putting it straight down the drain that creates the inefficiency.

So lets be honest about the no chill method, even if water wastage was the original concern (which I seriously doubt), it's no longer got anything at all to do with conserving water, it's got to do with effort - and not having to make one.


And Barge, for someone who claims to boil in plastic, no chill and only achieve 60% efficiency, perhaps you need to practice a regime of a little less trolling and a little more time listening? Not sure exactly what your last couple of posts were trying to achieve other than to piss people off. <_< Surely that's not what you're about...

 

[Gerard_M]

Wow, 940 posts into this topic & it seems a few have missed the subject title.

If it suits you to use it, then do so.

If you don't like it, fine.

No Chill suits my present set-up, but if things were different who knows. I do know that getting things sorted a little earlier on brew day, lets me spend more time with my family, so that is a bonus.

I don't like Sushi resturants because I don't trust uncooked seafood, I am not about to look for a Sushi forum & bore the crap out of people that do happen to like eating their fish raw.

Cheers
Gerard

 

[Barge]

i'm about conveying the sense that if you don't like it, lump it...as Gerard more politely stated. i'm happy with my set-up and have had few questions over the years that weren't already answered by somebody else. you call it trolling...i call it taking in what others have said. my point to Darren is that he has said it many times, loud and clear and now it's time for him (and all those who don't NC) to butt out of THE USERS OF NO CHILL thread, FFS!