Users Of The "no Chiller Method"

[mikelinz]

Excuse the dumb question of the day but what is a "cube"

rgds mike

 

[deebee]

But surly the whole point with no chill is that your are putting a heat pasturised liquid into a sealed container that is being heat pasturised by the heat in the liquid. So there can be no living nasties in the container until you open it after it has cooled down (assuming 1 sufficient heat to start with & 2 an air tight container.

Not necessarily. There has been much discussion and debate and no one can say that botulism spores will not survive those temperatures given typical pH levels and anaerobic conditions of fresh wort.

Excuse the dumb question of the day but what is a "cube"

Plastic jerry cans, often in roughly cubic shape.

 

[therook]

i've done 2x no-chills
the 1st one, the cube melted
the 2nd one, after a few weeks the wort turned itself into vinegar

i'm sticking to chilling and pitching yeast from now on.

I would be looking at my quality of cube if it is melting and turning into Vinegar.

I dont think anyone one else has posted a failure using this method.

Rook

 

[user 384]

but 1000s of no chill beer is not proof.

I thought within science repeatability is considered proof. If everything taken as scientific fact had to have 100% certainty then, we would have a very small curriculum.

Cheers
MAH

 

[SJW]

i've done 2x no-chills
the 1st one, the cube melted
the 2nd one, after a few weeks the wort turned itself into vinegar

i'm sticking to chilling and pitching yeast from now on.

I have done at least 15 no chillers now with 100% every time. As for low hop aroma. I add all my late addition hops straight into the cube. If thats not enough I will dry hop in the keg or at the end of primary fermentation.
Also after some contact time I throw all mine into the pool to bring em down quick, then store under the house at a constant 15 - 20 deg C.
I would say by now that enough people have had a go at this for it to be, as those two clowns on Mythbusters would say, CONFIRMED.
Anyone in the NSW X-Mas case swap will be drinking my Belgian Strong that was no chiller, so for those who have not had a go.............................HAVE A GO............

STEVE

 

[drsmurto]

I no chill into a fermenter. I figure that most kit instructions tell you to mix up the goo with boiling water so they must be rated to at least 100degC.

I plan on chilling one day but the list of things i want to buy is a few pages so the chiller keeps being out off.

I wont be adding too many late (after 15mins) additions - dry hop instead, no point in wasting the hops!

Cheers
DrSmurto

 

[Lukes]

I would be looking at my quality of cube if it is melting and turning into Vinegar.
I dont think anyone one else has posted a failure using this method.
Rook

I have :angry:
It was too much head room in the cube and maybe not fully cleaned around the handle area.
As Doc posted I now run cubes at a slightly higher grav than the brew I want and Squeeze all the air out.
Have not had a problem since.

 

[crozdog]

Luke,

In July I fermented 2 cubes which I made up back in November last year - that's 8 months by my counting. Bloody nice drop too - I'll give you a sample on Saturday @ the brew day.

 

[Steve Lacey]

I thought within science repeatability is considered proof. If everything taken as scientific fact had to have 100% certainty then, we would have a very small curriculum.

MAH, you could call it evidence, but not necessarily proof. The repeated non-appearance of something that has a low probability of appearance is not proof that it does not exist. When you are talking about things that have extremely low rates of incidence, you have to collect an enormous amount of data before you can claim proof. By way of example, we have repeatedly failed to show that electromagnetic radiation from outer space comes from an intelligent life form (as far as I know), but this doesn't mean we have proved the non-existence of extra-terrestrial beings.

Not that I am taking sides on the point of substance here, just pointing out this little point of logic. For what it is worth I am, out of necessity, a practitioner of NCNC... no-cube no-chill.

 

[troydo]

both my ags ive done so far have been no chilled both great...

just swished some no rinse sanartiser in and squeezed out most of the air

 

[warrenlw63]

I have :angry:
It was too much head room in the cube and maybe not fully cleaned around the handle area.
As Doc posted I now run cubes at a slightly higher grav than the brew I want and Squeeze all the air out.
Have not had a problem since.

Hey Luke

Just out of curiousity when you fill your cubes do you sit them on their sides for 30 minutes or so to let the liquid sanitize the handle? I think I remeber Bigfridge saying that this is NNL's preferred method when filling their fresh wort kits.

What I usually do is fill the cubes and leave them on the side for a couple of hours. I just rotate every 30 minutes. After then I stand them upright until I'm ready to use them.

Just to be safe I also hot water and napisan the cubes after emptying the wort. On brew day I fill them with 5ml of iodophor and 5 litres of water and shake the crap out of them to get some good sanitizer contact.

I'd like to think I treat the cubes in the same way as a fermenter in terms of cleanliness regardless of the hot wort pasteurizing them.

I've now done 20 no chill batches thus far. Being 42 litre batches that accounts to 40 cubes. None have gone manky on me yet (touch wood). h34r:

Warren -

 

[Kai]

Not necessarily. There has been much discussion and debate and no one can say that botulism spores will not survive those temperatures given typical pH levels and anaerobic conditions of fresh wort.

No-one has satisfactorily established that the conditions in a no-chill cube will suit botulinum growth either. HDPE vessels are gas permeable so there is going to be O2 ingress.

 

[Stuster]

Ok, so not proof, but evidence that this there is not a high risk of botulism in Australia. First, from here.

A case of infant botulism was reported from Victoria during the first quarter of 2001 (see National Polio Reference Laboratory report p.54, this issue). This is only the fourth case of botulism in Australia since 1996. All cases have been in infants aged less than one year. Infant (or intestinal) botulism cases arise from ingestion of Clostridium botulinum spores, which germinate in the intestine. Sources of spores are multiple and include foods such as honey and dust. In this case, a 5-month-old infant was hospitalised after a 3-day history of poor feeding, constipation, ptosis, difficulty in swallowing, weakness and loss of head control. Although there were various environmental exposures, including dust, no source for the child's infection could be determined.

Also, for you mead makers out there, from here.

There have been only six cases of botulism reported in Australia between 1991 and 2003. Two of these occurred in Victoria in 2000 and 2001 (Communicable Diseases Network Australia - National Notifiable Diseases Surveillance System)....Sources of spores include foods such as honey and dust. Honey has been described in the US literature as a source of infection but never implicated in Australia and surveys of Australian honey have failed to identify C. botulinum.

 

[Stuster]

What I usually do is fill the cubes and leave them on the side for a couple of hours. I just rotate every 30 minutes. After then I stand them upright until I'm ready to use them.

Just to be safe I also hot water and napisan the cubes after emptying the wort. On brew day I fill them with 5ml of iodophor and 5 litres of water and shake the crap out of them to get some good sanitizer contact.

I'd like to think I treat the cubes in the same way as a fermenter in terms of cleanliness regardless of the hot wort pasteurizing them.

That is exactly the same process I use. Is it a case of great minds or...?

 

[therook]

Luke,

In July I fermented 2 cubes which I made up back in November last year - that's 8 months by my counting. Bloody nice drop too - I'll give you a sample on Saturday @ the brew day.

crozdog,

how were these stored?

Rook

 

[braufrau]

BF I'm hoping you're not Darren in drag by some chance? :lol:

Warren -

Yes. I'm Darren in Drag!

Oh this is sooo unfair.
I just posted yesterday saying "hey guys the botulism debate is over because hop oil kills botulism" and posted a couple of links and happened
to mention that without the hops you'd be taking your life in your hands I'm now the wicked witch of the anti no chill brigade.

Boo hoo!

I'm sooo misunderstood!

And BTW - (man! i just can't help myself) boiling wort will not kill botulism which can survive to 116C which is why non acidic foods (pH > 5.5) have to be
canned under pressure.

 

[braufrau]

OK OK! I'll just say this ....


thanks to everyone who volunteered to be lab rats in the no chill experiment. I really glad it turned out not to be dangerous.

Oh man! I really should tape my fingers together!

 

[Stuster]

Braufrau happily stirred her wort, soon to be no-chilled.

 

[crozdog]

crozdog,

how were these stored?

Rook

Just on the concrete floor of the colorbond garage. For a few months they were opposite a west facing window - i didn't even consider the potential effects of light strike but I must say it is a really tasty bo-pils!

 

[crozdog]

forgot to say that once I empty a cube into a fermenter, the cube gets a rinse, a soak in sodium percarbonate, another rinse then I put a teaspoon of sodium metabisulphite & a cup or 2 of hot water into the cube then seal it up & shake. Before filling, they get a good rinse and iodorphor.

the sodium met keeps bugs out between use. Dunno if it kills botulism, but I'm more worried about mould & other bacteria which can infect the wort.