Users Of The "no Chiller Method"

[Kingy]

what sort of hoses are you guys using for transporting hot liquid. I found a jiggler syphon today but for some reason i think it would melt so didnt buy it.

cheers kingy

 

[oldbugman]

dont mess round with the syphons if its hot, get a tap on the pot.

 

[blackbock]

what sort of hoses are you guys using for transporting hot liquid. I found a jiggler syphon today but for some reason i think it would melt so didnt buy it.

cheers kingy

Kingy the silicon hose Ross sells is just the stuff. It's thicker walled than the stuff from Grain and Grape (I have both). It still gets too hot to hold for very long when the wort travels through it, but man it's tough.

 

[PostModern]

what sort of hoses are you guys using for transporting hot liquid. I found a jiggler syphon today but for some reason i think it would melt so didnt buy it.

cheers kingy

I use stuff like this http://www.desihose.com/viewproduct.asp?pid=99 Don't know if it's that exact product, but it's pressure and temperature rated. I just push it over the barbs on my ball valve.

 

[Duff]

dont mess round with the syphons if its hot, get a tap on the pot.

Bravo. Open up the tap and fill direct into the cube.

 

[johnno]

I too have been using this method for about the last 6 months.

Does anyone have any thoughts about constantly reusing the same cubes? Is it possible after multiple uses of a cube the plastic may start leeching? Or be affected in some other way from the heat.

cheers
johnno

 

[eric8]

Bravo. Open up the tap and fill direct into the cube.

What have you got on the end of the ball valve?

 

[Kingy]

if i fitted a tap to an aluminium boiler is it just as simple as drilling and then fitting a steel tap with rubber washes. How high up the boiler should i fit the tap or how many litres should i try to leave in the boiler.



im really keen to no chill bcoz i waste enough water allready.

edit: delete silly question

 

[Punter]

What have you got on the end of the ball valve?

I use a plastic hose connector on the end of mine,
like these

then just shove one of these on to my clear hose

snap on, snap off,
easy as, and cheap to replace every so often.
Ive also seen people use brass ones the same, which I may upgrade to soon.
Would love to find something in SS.
The hose I use looks like this except its clear, not pink!

Found it in Bunnings, not the gardening section though.

 

[eric8]

Punter
I have the brass hose connector, but can you just use some of Ross' silicon hose straight on to the connector?
Silicon hose (ID 1/2") , would that fit over the end?
Eric

 

[Punter]

Eric8, I'm not sure that it will. I think the end of the connector is a little bit larger
than your hose. Maybe try putting it in hot water and squeezing it over the end.
If not that reinforced tubing is only $2 or $3 per metre, and slides straight into the
hose connector tail.

 

[eric8]

Punter I just measured it and I think you would be right, the connector is a bit larger. Of to the hardware store I go again. Lucky most of the stuff I get from there I can put down for tax purposes

 

[Brewer_010]

I too have been using this method for about the last 6 months.

Does anyone have any thoughts about constantly reusing the same cubes? Is it possible after multiple uses of a cube the plastic may start leeching? Or be affected in some other way from the heat.

cheers
johnno

Yeah I have wondered about this too...but maybe the higher density plastic would be OK?? :blink:
Is there an chemistry dude out there who can enlighten us on this? :unsure:
I read something a while back about re-using the plastic water bottles (like Mt Franklin), by washing in hot water etc you begin to break down the compounds and various chemicals leach into the water you are drinking. Can't remember what they were now, but man they sounded real ugly. Gotta wonder with this sort of thing.
Cheers.

 

[blackbock]

Punter
I have the brass hose connector, but can you just use some of Ross' silicon hose straight on to the connector?
Silicon hose (ID 1/2") , would that fit over the end?
Eric

eric, I use the fitting top LH corner

The '19mm' one screws directly onto my ball valves and although they get hot, they won't come off. The 1/2" silicon hose fits right into the end of them, if you're worried you can use hose clamps as well, but I used them the first couple of times without, just check them first to make sure they're screwed on properly.

 

[PostModern]

Yeah I have wondered about this too...but maybe the higher density plastic would be OK?? :blink:
Is there an chemistry dude out there who can enlighten us on this? :unsure:
I read something a while back about re-using the plastic water bottles (like Mt Franklin), by washing in hot water etc you begin to break down the compounds and various chemicals leach into the water you are drinking. Can't remember what they were now, but man they sounded real ugly. Gotta wonder with this sort of thing.
Cheers.

We went thru this at some length a few months ago. The upshot was: Food grade HDPE is stable at well over 100C and uses citric acid as a plasticiser. So unless your wort is about 130C when it hits the cube you'll be alright so long as you have food grade HDPE. Even if your wort is over 130, you'll just get a malformed cube and some food additive in your beer. To know if your cube has leached plasticisers, a quick test suggestion (not confirmed) was that if the cube returns to its normal shape after emptying, it has not gone plastic, so you've leached nothing into the wort. So far, my cubes (sourced from ESB, NNL and some direct from Cospak) are all looking the right shape, although the ones I've used a lot are changing colour a bit either from dark wort or repeated rinsing with iodine.

The key to this is to use FOOD GRADE cubes only, give effort 110% to your cube sanitation and pack the wort HOT.

As for hose barbs, I have these screwed into the SS ball valves on my kettle and HLT (and one spare for the MLT when I get around to it):

 

[colinsk]

Hi, I was asked about this on the air and have been curious about it for some time. First I had to express the botulism concern as it would be neglent not to. I looked into it. At a pH of 5.2 you are pretty safe. How ever if you are at a pH of 5.8 there is a slight risk. Now since we clean these cubes there should be no spores but I can't find any evidence that botulism is killed by hops. It is however inhibited by O2 but i don't think you want to add O2 at 100C! Then I started thinking of other problems. Most wort spoilage bacteria would be killed by the heat, Yeast would be killed by the heat. It makes me wonder how you end up with bloated cubes? Has anyone tasted beer from the bloated cubes? What does it taste like?

Colin Kaminski
Masterbrewer
Downtown Joes
Napa, CA - USA

 

[Jye]

Hey Colin,

Great to have your here :beerbang: I remember you talking about this on TBN and its good to see your following it up.

I have nothing to add except welcome to AHB.

Cheers
Jye

 

[Cortez The Killer]

It'd have to be some kind of wild yeast spore what wasn't exposed to the heat some how or may have been sucked in when the cube contracts due to work shrinkage - I'd imagine (just guessing though)

Interesting question none the less

No infections here to date - though the most I've left a wort in a cube has been 3 days

Cheers

 

[Thommo]

Welcome Colin,

I've only had one cube swell up. When I loosened the lid to release the pressure, my kitchen was filled with one of the foulest smells I have ever had the mis-pleasure of smelling. No way in hell I was going to taste that.

I would be very surprised if someone was brave enough to ferment something like I had and then drink it. (Then again, maybe not that surprised...)

Cheers,
Thommo.

 

[oldbugman]

MY one swollen cube, which was from me taking a hydro reading and then putting the lid back on and leaving it for a few days. smelt TERRIBLE... of course it may have been the copious amount of late hop additions but I wasn't going to chance it. Cube and wort thrown out.

 

[PostModern]

Hi Colin,

I've never had a failure with this method, so I can't help with your question about bloated cubes. I simply try and avoid the possibility of that occurring. As I've said in this and numerous other threads, it's about method.

Botulism is a risk, but a remote one if strict cleanliness is observed and the wort run into cubes as soon as the whirlpool has settled. If there are botulism spores in the wort, chillers will encounter the risk as much as no-chillers. If botulism is in the cube, you're failing in sanitation.

I have added one step to my process, which is to recirculate some wort through the tap of the kettle during the vigorous boil. This will reduce the chance of spoilage organisms inside the tap from taking hold in the wort. Also, the cubes should be inverted to heat-sanitise the lid and hollow handle immediately after the cube is sealed. The base will be sufficiently heated as the cube fills, the top of the container may not be unless this simple process is observed.

You should also make a very strong point of ensuring your listeners use HDPE or other heat-stable food grade packaging for the cube, to ensure that the container's plasticisers are not leeched into the wort.

HTH.
PoMo.

 

[Cortez The Killer]

I also run about 2 litres through the kettle tap and hose mid boil to (hopefully) flush anything through - I tip this wort back into the kettle (HSA beware!)

Also the hose stays attached to the kettle tap and the end runs back into the kettle for a good part of the boil. Needless to say the hose isn't clear anymore but a lovely green colour!

Cheers

 

[Doc]

Hey Colin,

Thanks for the great info you have provided on TBN especially on water. I've learned a lot from those episodes.

I've been using this method exclusively all year. I've lost count of how many batches I have done. Typically each batch is a concentrated boil going into 2 x 15 litre HDPE containers (which I then dilute for fermentation).
I pitched the oldest cube I had on hand last night (brewed in Feb) and all was good.
I'm meticulous about making sure the cube(s) are clean before transferring wort into them, then removing all air to minimise any other potential risk of infection. I use PSR (Chrolinated Tri-Sodium Phosphate) for cleaning the cubes.
Touch wood; I haven't had any problems so far.

Beers,
Doc

 

[PostModern]

I use PSR (Chrolinated Tri-Sodium Phosphate) for cleaning the cubes.

Ditto. PSR immediately after emptying and iodophor on brew day. I wouln't like to meet the bug that can live thru that.

 

[Doc]

Ditto. PSR immediately after emptying and iodophor on brew day. I wouln't like to meet the bug that can live thru that.

Mine get left in PSR (initially with 66decC+ hot water) for a minimum of 12 hours before being rinsed immediately prior to being filled with wort. If anything can survie the PSR, the heat of the transfer will then kill it.

Doc

 

[PostModern]

Yeah, that'll work. Darren put the fear of death into me before I started no chilling, so I figure two sanitising agents as well as heat should take care of just about everything. So far, so good

I'm not sure what Ray Mills and Scotty do. After all, they brought this method to the homebrew setting, so they'd have hundreds of brews no-chilled. I don't think either of them have had an infection? Maybe they'd like to weigh in?

 

[///]

I'm not sure what Ray Mills and Scotty do. After all, they brought this method to the homebrew setting, so they'd have hundreds of brews no-chilled. I don't think either of them have had an infection? Maybe they'd like to weigh in?

Only issue at home has been reusing a cube and chucking in the pool, cooling quickly then ending in troubled waters. Otherwise heat + time is an important factor as is good process. Simon calls it 'right first time', I call it 'clean the crapout of anything laying still and then when in doubt, chuck more caustic at it for good measure otherwise folks yell at you'...

Le Tour is on, so bon voyage and go Cadel!

Scotty

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Colin,

Thanks for following up over here. Welcome to AHB.

I've only no-chilled once, so I have bugger all experience. But mine certainly worked out well. Yeast pitched about 1.5 months after the beer was brewed.

I strongly suspect that if I had a swelled cube, I would simply put it straight down the drain without even bothering to check the taste. Whatever is causing the swelling just cant be good.

I'm still in the throws of deciding whether to swap to no-chill... mainly I suspect my rectitude is due to the fact that I have a fairly recently puchased IM chiller that cost a bloody bomb... and I have to self justify the expense.

welcome again to AHB

Thirsty

 

[Lukes]

It was barely 7 degrees last night in the brew shed so I guess I am chilling the wort !

Check out the break in this C.A.P sample (dregs) that was left overnight on the bench.

Chilled no chill :blink:

I have had a swelled cube some time ago and it was a sanitation issue and too much head room in the cube.

I have started doing what Doc mentioned and running the cubes at a higher gravity and adding water at fementation.

- Luke

 

[warrenlw63]

It was barely 7 degrees last night in the brew shed so I guess I am chilling the wort !

Check out the break in this C.A.P sample (dregs) that was left overnight on the bench.

Chilled no chill :blink:

I have had a swelled cube some time ago and it was a sanitation issue and too much head room in the cube.

I have started doing what Doc mentioned and running the cubes at a higher gravity and adding water at fementation.

- Luke

:blink: Looks like one of those drink they give you at Vietnamese restaurants Luke.

Did you use polenta? I've seen similar things when making CAPs in the bottom of glass carboys. These batches were done with a chiler at the time though.

Warren -