Usa Brewer Trying No-chill Method

[Stuster]

And....what does it smell like??

Mainly malt and hops.

I haven't really picked up vegetal aromas, but I guess I usually make ales, often hoppy ones which would mask this to some extent. I'll keep a nose out for this in cool worts in future though and see if I can notice it.

 

[oldbugman]

Back when I no chilled.. when pouring from the cube to the fermenter the smells you smelt wouldnt be there in the finished product.

 

[PickledFetus]

I'm not trying to start a flame war about no-chilling here. Obviously it IS working well for tons of people over there, including ESB. I'd really just like to figure out how I can do it successfully because it would really simplify my brewing if I could.

An infection is definitely possible, but I'm pretty good about sanitation. The keg was completely disassembled and cleaned out with hot water and PBW, then sanitized with Star-San immediately before racking the hot wort. Also, the keg spent less than 24 hours in the temperature zone where bacteria is active. The rest of the time, it was at 4C in the fridge. When I tasted the wort, it was still very sweet and it didn't have any sourness or other characteristics of an infection other than the vegetal taste and aroma I mentioned.

I really hope you guys are right about fermentation scrubbing out these tastes. If thats the case, you guys will have converted yet another brewer over! I will bump this thread with my results in a couple of weeks.

 

[newguy]

PF,

If your fermentation is active enough, the DMS will indeed be scrubbed out. I'm very familiar with a local micro, and every one of their batches positively reeks of cooked vegetables going into the fermenter. The next morning, all traces of it are gone. They get a lot of DMS because of the specifics of their kettle, which doesn't drive off much water during their boils. A lot of it condenses on their chimney and runs right back down into the wort.

If you pitched the proper quantity of yeast and it was healthy enough, you should have no issues. If the cooked vegetable aroma persists and it also develops a sourness, you have a sanitation issue post-boil. I know you said that you don't think that your CO2 lines could have been a source of contamination, but they definitely could have had something to do with it.

I hope it turns out fine.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Lots of people confuse DMS with bad - it doesn't have to be. And I think a lot of people who think they know what it smells/tastes like don't. I had a BJCP judge and hombrew shop employee, tell me that the beer I asked him to taste was so riddled with DMS that he found it undrinkable - I doubted, so I gave a sample to one of the tasting panel at work - this gentleman has been tested and can tell you the ppm level at which he is able to detect DMS - and according to him the beer was indeed nasty, but there wasn't even a trace of DMS in it.

In PF's case, it looks like it might be a case of ferment the wort and taste the beer. Hand it around to as many experienced tasters and see what they say. If you don't like it and they dont like it - doesn't matter if its DMS or not, its still nasty.

On a side note - I know other people do it, and see it as OK. But I just don't like the idea of all that contact time with the hot break and hop trub. If I was recommending a method, I'd be recommending that a normal whirlpool and break separation process happen before transfer to the cube. Especially if you are going to leave the wort in the kettle for any extended period of time. Thats just my opinion though and I know that others disagree.

Oh and chill or no-chill, I too always taste my wort. I find it to be more raw and vegetal hot than it is cold, but not terribly so.

TB

OH and PF - don't worry about starting a flame war over no-chill. That happens every second time someone mentions it. So its not you, its part of the regularly scheduled programming.

 

[buttersd70]

OH and PF - don't worry about starting a flame war over no-chill. That happens every second time someone mentions it. So its not you, its part of the regularly scheduled programming.

Oh god, this old one again......TB is right, the flame war wil invariably start up anyway. Personally, I'm on the fence, and am still undecided on the no chill -chill debate. I cant tell from yours, obviously, cos it's over there, all I can go on is my own experience. Having done both chill and no chill, and as yet being unconvinced fully one way or the other, I have detected no detrimental levels of dms in no chill compared to regular quick chilling. As I said, just my 2c, and opinion. My thoughts, however, are to look at it from a post ferment perspective, and see what it tastes like then. Many a crap smelling wort has turned to gold after the yeast has worked its magic.

 

[braufrau]

Maybe this should be moved to the troll thread?

linky

just kidding

 

[Weizguy]

I'm gonna jump in here and state that when I judged at the NSW State comp recently, I only tasted a couple of beers that had DMS and/or strong vegetal flavours. Granted that I was not judging the lagers, but surely if there is a reasonable percentage of no-chill brewers in NSW, there is some sort of correlation to be made with this lack of evidence?

I also taste my "fresh wort" from the jerry-can at pitching time, coz that's the kind of beer deviant I am. Always tastes sweet and hoppy/bitter. Now I have a couple of lagers to brew soon, so I'll check them as well, of course.

So, that brings me back to PF's issue. I have to agree with MHB, that I'd assume the US malt is the DMS culprit. That would absolutely explain the lack of "fresh wort" packs in the US. It's why US brew texts always push the chilling aspect (as well the $$$ tied up in the production of chilling equipment). It's not about the contamination aspect (according to the lhbs's insurance company, there is negligible opportunity for contaminated wort, if the standard no-chill is used - this may not apply to overnight chilling in the brew vessel), and the botulism scare either.
PF's technique seems good, if a little irregular (using the keg, I mean) and that only leaves the ingredients as the likely source of the DMS.

I honestly believe that US malts have a higher propensity to produce DMS, due to increased levels of the SMM precursor.
Maybe Wes can help here, regarding US malts and SMM?

 

[jimmyjack]

PF, I would be looking at the variables that were different than traditional no chill brews. The two that stand out are the keg and C02. Most of us have never no chilled into a keg. I would be loath to do this as I would have no idea what lurks in those dip tubes. Also you said you put a layer of C02 on top. I cant tell you the amount of time I have seen beer back flow into my C02 lines. My money is you have picked up an infection from your C02 lines. Dont dismiss no chill just yet, give it another go but next time change your variables.


Cheers,

JJ

 

[PickledFetus]

PF, I would be looking at the variables that were different than traditional no chill brews. The two that stand out are the keg and C02. Most of us have never no chilled into a keg. I would be loath to do this as I would have no idea what lurks in those dip tubes. Also you said you put a layer of C02 on top. I cant tell you the amount of time I have seen beer back flow into my C02 lines. My money is you have picked up an infection from your C02 lines. Dont dismiss no chill just yet, give it another go but next time change your variables.


Cheers,

JJ

I think I will definitely try this again at least once. My brewdays would get a lot easier if I could make it work for me.

I really don't think I got an infection from my keg. I disassembled it completely and soaked all the parts (ports, poppets, diptubes, lid) and the body overnight in hot PBW then sanitized in Star-San immediately before racking. Plus, I only left the CO2 on for a minute or two when it was still hot enough to pasteurize everything coming in. There was still a bit of positive pressure left inside when I opened it yesterday.

According to a few sites I found, DMS levels in hot wort increase by about 30% for every hour left above 150F (65C). I'm thinking that I might repeat the same process, but only let the wort stay hot for about 40 minutes (20 minutes standing up, 20 minutes upside down to sanitize the lid). After that, I'll drop the keg in a bucket of ice water to get it below DMS production temperatures. That should significantly reduce DMS levels in the cooled wort, hopefully enough where a vigorous enough fermentation can further reduce them below the taste threshold.

What do you guys think about that? Is 40 minutes at 180-190F (82-87C) enough to sanitize everything? I'm not planning on keeping the wort for more than a week or two maximum, and I'll probably store it in my fridge most of that time.

...And if that doesn't work, I'll probably try again with a cube, just in case my keg is the issue.

 

[PostModern]

I do rabbit on a bit about no-chill, so I can't help but get into this thread

I strongly recommend you try the exact same method we've been using with excellent results. As MHB pointed out, the rigidity of the corny keg is an issue, as is the rapid chilling you propose above, when the method is designed, in effect, to ensure sanitation of the wort and container by heat. Get your $5 cube and do what we do. If that doesn't work, more research would be warranted. I think with your different ingredients as well as a different method makes it doubly hard to troubleshoot. A flexible, foodgrade container and a good food grade hose to transfer from kettle to cube are all you need. Much easier to clean than the inside of a corny with all those seals and part-to-part joins and whatnot. Simple = good.

EDIT: and yes, as TB points out, whirlpool before transfer to keep the hot break and hop waste out of the cube.

 

[~MikE]

According to a few sites I found, DMS levels in hot wort increase by about 30% for every hour left above 150F (65C). I'm thinking that I might repeat the same process, but only let the wort stay hot for about 40 minutes (20 minutes standing up, 20 minutes upside down to sanitize the lid). After that, I'll drop the keg in a bucket of ice water to get it below DMS production temperatures. That should significantly reduce DMS levels in the cooled wort, hopefully enough where a vigorous enough fermentation can further reduce them below the taste threshold.

no-chill method that involves a form of chilling? sounds interesting... partial chill?

What do you guys think about that? Is 40 minutes at 180-190F (82-87C) enough to sanitize everything? I'm not planning on keeping the wort for more than a week or two maximum, and I'll probably store it in my fridge most of that time.

40mins above 80C should kill just about everything. if you're leaving it for a week or two, even in the fridge you'll probably be able to see/smell if it's been infected, but i doubt it would be. if you're going to use the keg, i'd suggest sanitiser, then pressure and tapp of a heap of the sanitiser to clean the dip tube of any microbes.

 

[reviled]

And plus instead of $5, your cube will probably only cost you like $1.23 at walmart or some other pathetically random and low price <_<

I know I said it before, but I wish we had walmart here

 

[PickledFetus]

And plus instead of $5, your cube will probably only cost you like $1.23 at walmart or some other pathetically random and low price <_<

I know I said it before, but I wish we had walmart here

Well I'm a hour and a half from the nearest Walmart so I'll more than make up for that with the price of gas (which has skyrocketed almost $1 per gallon in the last few days due to the hurricanes in the gulf)

 

[reviled]

Well I'm a hour and a half from the nearest Walmart so I'll more than make up for that with the price of gas (which has skyrocketed almost $1 per gallon in the last few days due to the hurricanes in the gulf)

Im sorry man but I hate you aye! Gas is $2 a litre here

Bloody americans with their cheap gas and cheap everything <_< Wanna marry me so I can get a green card? hahahaha

I just worked out, that $2NZD a litre, is $7.60NZD per US gallon...

 

[PostModern]

Well I'm a hour and a half from the nearest Walmart so I'll more than make up for that with the price of gas (which has skyrocketed almost $1 per gallon in the last few days due to the hurricanes in the gulf)

Mate, we're paying $1.40 per LITRE (we call it Petrol), so sympathy for you is hard to find

 

[reviled]

Mate, we're paying $1.40 per LITRE (we call it Petrol), so sympathy for you is hard to find

So based on todays rate, thats $1.73NZD a litre, and considering the exchange rate is crapola for us at the mo thats a pretty good price for petrol <_<

So anyone over there got any jobs going at the mo? Im a hard worker, sales driven, have ooodles of banking/finance experiance...

Im not actually joking...

 

[PostModern]

Mate, I use diesel and the have paid $1.83 recently. Nuts. What we save in fuel over you kiwis we spend in extra booze excise, it all balances out

 

[reviled]

Mate, I use diesel and the have paid $1.83 recently. Nuts. What we save in fuel over you kiwis we spend in extra booze excise, it all balances out

Thats true, you guys get taxed horrendously on store brought beers... But in saying that, isnt that why alot of us are here

 

[PickledFetus]

Mate, we're paying $1.40 per LITRE (we call it Petrol), so sympathy for you is hard to find

Well normally it is cheaper (plus I live in an area with more expensive gas than the rest of ths US), but I just paid $4.65 USD per gallon last time I filled up. Assuming my math is correct, that works out to about $1.50 AUD per liter. That will go down after they crack down on hurricane price gouging, but believe me, cheap gas in the US isn't going to last much longer. Especially with how retarded people here are about buying huge-ass V10 trucks or SUVs to drive to work.