Usa Brewer Trying No-chill Method

[PickledFetus]

Hi all, I registered here a little while ago after finding some information on the No-Chill method and decided that I really wanted to try it. For reference, no-chill is almost unheard of here - I'm on the central coast of California, but I've never seen it even discussed on any US-centric homebrewing forums. I was pretty excited when I first read about it because it seems like it would really simplify my brewing and give me a lot more flexibility. I just recently tried out this method and thought I would post my experience.

I brewed a simple, lightly flavored blonde ale using the no-chill method to test it out (hoping that any off-flavors would stand out). I've read most of the no-chill threads here and it seems the main issues people are concerned with are the plastic cubes leeching into the wort, oxygen in the headspace of the cube, DMS production, and apparently botulism in the case of infant brewers. I decided to siphon my hot wort straight into a 5-gallon stainless steel cornelius keg and top it off with ~50psi of CO2 before sealing in order to avoid any issues with plastic or oxygen.

My recipe was pretty simple. 9lbs of domestic US two-row and 0.5lb of crystal 10L, with around 20 IBUs of Willamette for the bittering charge at 60min. I boiled for 90 minutes to hopefully reduce DMS and then siphoned straight into my keg after whirlpooling for a few minutes to get all the hop trub into the center. I left it to cool on the porch overnight, then threw it in my kegerator to settle out all the hot break and trub at 38-40 degrees (Fahrenheit obviously).

Today I pulled it out, siphoned it into my fermentor and pitched some US-05 dry yeast. I will reserve my final judgement in a week or so when its done, but the wort really smells and tastes like cooked corn (DMS). I mean it seriously smells like a goddamn keg full of creamed corn, its disgusting. I have heard the fermentation will scrub out some of the DMS - have any of you found that to be the case?

I'm really confused how the DMS flavor can be this blatant in my wort, but most no-chillers here are posting that they never taste it, even a little bit. Should I have whirlpooled a bit longer and waited for the temperature to drop a bit more before siphoning into my container? I probably sealed up the keg within 5 minutes of flameout. Pilsner malt and US six-row are supposed to be higher in DMS precursors (SMM), but US two-row (which is what I used) supposedly isn't. I would love to do another experiment with Australian two-row to see if that is my problem, but I have no idea where I would even get that.

I'll update this post in a week or two once I've tasted the finished beer, but for now I'm wondering if anyone here has tasted their no-chilled wort and tasted DMS that was not present in the finished product. I'm really hoping I don't have to dump this batch.

 

[reviled]

Hey mate, before I start, ill add that I dont really know what DMS tastes like, but I would assume you dont get it in any commercial beers... And I also assume it tastes quite shitty and you would notice it straight away?

In saying that, I have no chilled all 9 of my BIAB AG's so far, and they have all tasted absolutely fantastic... I nochilled in a plastic jerry can cube, left overnight, or sometimes up to a week, then put into the fermenter...

Ive tasted a couple of the finished product and cant notice any off flavours or unpleasantry's, the first was a smoked Porter which tasted really good, and the second was a nice APA with Golden Promise malt, and that also tastes bloody fantastic! In fact, close to a commercial APA that I buy every now and then...

Have you tasted the wort? Id give it a chance before throwing it away definately, and id probably suggest trying another batch...

Im not sure, but maybe it has something to do with you using a keg??? I havent noticed any plastic taste in my beer, allthough I didnt store it long term in the cube... But in saying that, cubes are made out of the same material as fermenters, and you dont get a plastic taste from a fermenter...

Also, just want to add big ups to you for diving in the deep end and giving it a shot B) There needs to be more people in the US open to new practices... And in NZ <_< lol

 

[PickledFetus]

Oh yeah, I definitely tasted the wort. I didn't know what DMS tasted like before today, but there's really no mistaking it. I've never tasted a commercial beer that has it, but it is really noticeable in my wort and it is disgusting. I hate dumping beer so I will definitely let it ferment completely and keg it like I normally do. I'm just a bit worried after tasting the wort.

Honestly I don't think using a cube would cause plastic flavors, I really just used a keg because I have tons of kegs lying around but I would have had to make a trip down to Walmart or something to get a plastic cube. Kegs fit better in my kegerator and I can hit it with CO2 to remove oxygen from the headspace easily.

 

[reviled]

Oh yeah, I definitely tasted the wort. I didn't know what DMS tasted like before today, but there's really no mistaking it. I've never tasted a commercial beer that has it, but it is really noticeable in my wort and it is disgusting. I hate dumping beer so I will definitely let it ferment completely and keg it like I normally do. I'm just a bit worried after tasting the wort.

Honestly I don't think using a cube would cause plastic flavors, I really just used a keg because I have tons of kegs lying around but I would have had to make a trip down to Walmart or something to get a plastic cube. Kegs fit better in my kegerator and I can hit it with CO2 to remove oxygen from the headspace easily.

Wish I had heaps of kegs lying around <_< And a walmart close by... You dont realise how lucky you are

Back on topic, if it is DMS that really sucks considering its your first no-chill.. Id try it again tho before ruling it out...

Make sure you keep us updated with the fermented beer

 

[Stuster]

That does not sound good, PF. I really hate DMS and sounds like you've got plenty of it.

I think the issue could be the malt you are using. American malts have far higher levels of SMM (the precursor to DMS) than Aussie malts do. This may be one of the reasons that no-chill is fine here but doesn't sound like it's working out so well for you. There has been some discussion of it over on Brewboard there and there were a few people over there who'd tried it and found it to be fine for them. It might be that they'd used a different malt or perhaps they boiled for longer (although a 90 minute boil is long enough already). Which malt was it that you used?

And then again, looking again at your process, something seems not right. So it cooled in the keg and then you transferred it to your fermenter. How long after that was it that you pitched your yeast?

I left it to cool on the porch overnight, then threw it in my kegerator to settle out all the hot break and trub at 38-40 degrees (Fahrenheit obviously).

Today I pulled it out, siphoned it into my fermentor and pitched some US-05 dry yeast.

 

[reviled]

I think the issue could be the malt you are using. American malts have far higher levels of SMM (the precursor to DMS) than Aussie malts do.

If thats the case, whats the deal with German malts? Considering thats mainly what I use cos most of the grain in NZ you can buy is from Weyermann...

And then theres the UK malts like Maris Otter and I think Golden Promise...

Cos these are what ive used and havnt had any DMS problems... (that I know of, allthough im sure if I had it id know)

 

[Stuster]

reviled, they're sort of in the middle. More DMS production than Aussie malts, but less than US ones. Some people seem to be able to pick out some DMS from worts made with Weyermann malt though I can't really pick it myself.

 

[PickledFetus]

I don't know which malt it was, but I can ask the next time I go to my homebrew shop. My guess is either Briess or Great Western standard pale two-row malt. Thats usually what my shop sells.

As far as my process, I racked it into the keg just a few minutes after flameout and sealed the keg. I attached my CO2 line with the regulator set to ~50psi and popped the pressure valve a few times to get rid of all the oxygen. Then I flipped the keg upside down for 10-20 minutes to let the heat sterilize the top of the keg, then flipped it back over and let it sit out on the porch overnight. The next morning I brought it back in and put it in my kegerator which is set to about 38-40F (which Google tells me is about 4 degrees for you Aussie weirdos ). I was planning on pitching the yeast sooner, but I got really busy at work so I ended up leaving the wort in the keg for about a week. I just pulled it out this morning and let it warm up to about 60F, siphoned the crystal clear wort (one advantage to no-chill) into a carboy, aerated with pure O2 and then pitched the yeast.

I am guessing that either I racked my hot wort too soon (since DMS production is probably much higher at near-boiling temperatures than if I waited until it was 185F to rack), or US two-row is just really high in SMM.

 

[reviled]

reviled, they're sort of in the middle. More DMS production than Aussie malts, but less than US ones. Some people seem to be able to pick out some DMS from worts made with Weyermann malt though I can't really pick it myself.

Meh, I havnt noticed it so ill keep no chilling till I do :beerbang:

 

[PickledFetus]

reviled, they're sort of in the middle. More DMS production than Aussie malts, but less than US ones. Some people seem to be able to pick out some DMS from worts made with Weyermann malt though I can't really pick it myself.

All of the homebrewing experts over here say that German malts are the highest in SMM (DMS precursor) because they're kilned so lightly. UK malts like MO and GP and US malts are supposed to have much lower amounts. I was originally planning on doing this experiment using German Pilsner malt because of that, but I decided that I should use US two-row since thats what I use for 90% of my beers.

 

[MHB]

I think you might be onto something with the grain choices, we are very lucky in Australia with our base malts.

There is a potential problem with racking to a keg, as the beer cools a vacuum forms and air can be drawn in through the poppet valves increasing your chance of infections. To counter this leave the keg connected to the gas, with a little over pressure, you dont need much just 10-20 kPa.

The advantage of cubes is that when sealed, the cube will pull in as the beer cools, tho it pays to make sure the lid is screwed on pretty tight, or the same problem can occur with cubes. The right choice in cube material is important it would appear that High Density Polly Ethylene (HDPE) is best as it doesnt contain Plasticisers that can leach and is very heat tolerant.

Which brings me to a pet hate, we use Metric, it perplexes me that a country that got rid of the old irrational Imperial monetary system long before we did appears phobic about changing to a more rational system of measurement, but like I said pet hate.

There is a tool bar up the top of the page called brew calcs it can do the translations for you I promise if I post on US forums I will do the conversions first.

As an aside, are any home brew shops in the US selling Fresh Wort Kits? If so they will have effectively ironed the bugs out of the process. If so the manufacture might be able to offer some help.

There is nothing new about Fresh Wort or No Chill: the first widely available home brew kits in Australia were Coopers wort in a plastic bag, sold in supermarkets in the 1970s.
ESB was selling a similar product for as long as I can remember, before they changes to plastic cubes probably the first No Chill in its present form.

And please dont mention Botulism

MHB

 

[matti]

Onya MHB

I am yet to be totally convinced that no chill is as effective as chilling and removing the majority of break.
I have tried may fresh wort kit and I find them very drinkable but lacking hop flavours.
This could be due to recipes of course.
My latest lager which I boiled the !@$% out of for 90 minutes had no sign of DMS. I hopped it to 35+ Ibu and no chilled.
I rack it off the break after 7 days fermentation completely and it has lost some hop flavour already.
I am aware that this normal as fermentation does get rid of some hop flavour.
I guess i'll find out once in keg.

Pf from US I hope you post us the result ones the its finished.
Matti

 

[PickledFetus]

I do apologize for not using metric. I agree that Imperial measurements are stupid, but everyone here uses them and its hard to think in metric when everyone has grown up using pounds, inches, and gallons.

I thought about the vacuum issue, thats why I initially put 50psi (344 kPa) into the keg. I didn't leave it connected as it cooled because I was hoping that was enough gas to prevent a vacuum and I am not sure that my CO2 and my gas lines are 100% sterile. If I try this again, I might try that, but my wort didn't taste or smell infected so I don't think thats an issue for me.

I've never seen fresh wort kits for sale here. The closest thing we have are liquid malt extracts, but you still need to boil them and add hops and more water. I did some Googling and found a company in Virginia that sells fresh wort kits, so I might email them and see if DMS has ever been an issue for them.

 

[MHB]

Mate I wasnt having a shot, I remember when we went metric, and the change to decimal currency (just) I also remember the confusion. Would I change back NO WAY!

Re: - cooling wort in kegs
Unfortunately its ok if you do it standing up doesnt work all the time.

As an alternative to applying some over pressure, you could fit a sterile filter onto a disconnect, so that as the wort cools it draws in filtered air. Just one idea and I am sure we can come up with others, but prophylactics beat wishful thinking and guess work every time.
View attachment 21157
Im saying this because I lost a 50 Litre batch I no-chilled in a commercial keg wont make that mistake again.

MHB

 

[TidalPete]

G'day PF,

I'm afraid that I can't really comment on your problem as I don't 'No Chill' but here is a link to a great little free unit converter if you're interested? ------- Linky

TP :beer:

 

[///]

I am not sure why i am compelled to reply to this thread, anyways as you o on the AHB ....

I think we can fairly say that cubes hot filled are a viable long-term way to store unfermented wort. With several hundred to output in the next few weeks, I know this is a safe method. I'll even be rude and say the hypotheses about DMS and Botulism are pure pith.

Aside from the issue with the cubes, I take more issue with the mis-representation of DMS profiles in beer. Have you ever drunk grolsh, warsteiner, budweiss budvar to name just a few beers with DMS in thier profiles? Many mainland Euro markets like this profile, and I dare say what you are tasting is not DMS but other off profiles from poor technique and sanitation.

If you want to test for DMS, take a sample of the fermented beer, heat it up to about 80c in a water bath, cap and cool. If there is any DMS then it will sure stick out as the heat forces the reaction pathway.

I wish someone would get a video camera and do a 'AHB Myth Busters' show, theres ample material for a few years worth of episodes...

 

[Screwtop]

Aside from the issue with the cubes, I take more issue with the mis-representation of DMS profiles in beer. Have you ever drunk grolsh, warsteiner, budweiss budvar to name just a few beers with DMS in thier profiles? Many mainland Euro markets like this profile

Not to forget Pilsner Urquell

I wish someone would get a video camera and do a 'AHB Myth Busters' show, theres ample material for a few years worth of episodes...

+1

What was in the keg prior? Shouldn't be any DMS after a 90 min boil.

I doubt many no chillers have actually tasted wort from the cube before pitching yeast to know what it tastes like pre fermentation. PickledFetus could actually be the first to do it :lol:

As this post includes No-Chill comments.........Flame suit on and ready :lol:

 

[Stuster]

I doubt many no chillers have actually tasted wort from the cube before pitching yeast to know what it tastes like pre fermentation. PickledFetus could actually be the first to do it :lol:

As this post includes No-Chill comments.........Flame suit on and ready :lol:

I always do. Good point about the probable lack of significant levels of DMS after a 90 minute boil. My money's now on an infection from the process. I don't keg (yet ) so didn't realise there was a potential for air to be drawn in.

 

[~MikE]

I do apologize for not using metric. I agree that Imperial measurements are stupid, but everyone here uses them and its hard to think in metric when everyone has grown up using pounds, inches, and gallons.

funny thing, i'm kinda useless with imperial except for heights. i can't estimate height in centimetres for crap. have to use feet-inches

on another note i no-chill.
i no chill in my keggle (virtually no risk of infection using the boiling vessel i figure) - works wonders, plus my brews always come out that little bit extra hoppy (though that could also be because i don't remove the hops when i tip it into the fermenter - should really install a tap hey?)

 

[Screwtop]

I always do.

And....what does it smell like??

I can't stand the smell of chilled wort, have sniffed lager wort at around 9C prior to pitching, always seems to have that corny/cereal/vegetal aroma. Ales at 20 or so pitching temps don't seem as bad plus they are generally more hoppy than any of the lagers I've made to date. Also the wort would have absorbed a fair bit of Co2 at that pressure, wouldn't it have a little carbonic acid aroma?

Screwy