Two Stage Fermentation.

[Beerbuoy]

I'm planning on brewing a Bohemian Pilsner this weekend but I think I've got in over my head when it comes to the starter I'm going to need.

The plan is 40lt pils and I have only one wyeast pack. Instead of spending a week building a starter the size of Sydney Harbour which I don't have containers to do I am thinking of adding more wort as the fermentation gets started.

Is it possible to start 10 liters in the fermenter with my one yeast pack, then once its up and running chuck the remaining 30 lt on top? Sort of like a 10lt starter. I know its probably not ideal and the fermentation police are going to come down on me but will it work? Will there be enough yeast growth in the 10lt to get a healthy ferment in the full 40 lt batch?

My reasoning is, if I where to ferment out 20 liters and then repitch on the cake there would be to much yeast so if I only use 10 lt to start then the yeast quantity should be closer to that required and I should get a healthier start from the wyeast pack.

I have had a play around with the Mr Malty pitching rate calculator and it seems it should work.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Zwickel]

Beerbuoy, thats not a good idea.

when the wort is cooled down, you should pitch the yeast as soon as possible. To leave the wort without yeast for a certain time is absolutely a high risk. The wort at that stage is very vulnerable to infections and that could happen faster than the yeast in your starter is growing.

So if you have no other choice, better to pitch the yeast in the whole batch and keep it a little warmer than recommended, just to provide a faster yeast grow.

Anyway, that would only be a compromise, to brew a real Pilsener is a real challenge, even for experienced brewers.

Sorry mate, youve started with the most complicated beer style, without having the right resources :icon_cheers:

 

[raven19]

Sounds like a reasonable plan to me.

If your temp control is up to scratch I dont foresee any major issues. Will there be any slight mutation of yeasts generations? Probably not as there should be plenty of active yeasties ready to munch on the top up wort.

Keeping your wort infection free whilst waiting for the first 10L to take off would be my biggest concern.

No Chill cubes would fix that issue - if you no chill!

Edit - good points by Zwickel, he beat me to it on the wort issue!

 

[jonocarroll]

My concern would be 'Activator' or 'Propagator'?

Sure, an activator has enough cells to pitch onto a 20L batch (at least for ales), but a propagator doesn't, and really needs that starter. Doubly so for a lager. I have heard doubts that an activator pack on its own is sufficient for a lager.

A propagator smack pack directly onto 10L is not a starter. It's likely to induce shock.

As Zwickel noted, Pilsners are tricky, and you can't take shortcuts.

I guess if your question is 'can I take a shortcut to make a pilsner?' then answer is probably "no."

Edit: should read "... to make a good pilsner?" -- sure, it will probably ferment, but so does a kit at 28*C, doesn't mean it will work well

 

[Beerbuoy]

Sorry forgot to mention I no chill so I can keep the wort as long as I need without problems.

The yeast pack is an activator so it should be plenty to start 10 liters.

Cheers

 

[Zwickel]

...snip... so I can keep the wort as long as I need without problems.

I dont know what you mean with that, does it mean youd like to keep the wort hot?

That probably would change the taste and colour, have you ever heard about hot wort oxidizing?
Thats the reason why the wort should be cooled down as fast as possible after boiling the hops.

The yeast pack is an activator so it should be plenty to start 10 liters.

but for a Pilsener thats not enough.

Im so sorry mate, cant tell you more positive things, I know how sad that feeling is

Cheers :icon_cheers:

 

[Beerbuoy]

....snip....I no chill

No problems keeping the wort safe while the first 10 liters starts to ferment

 

[Beerbuoy]

but for a Pilsener thats not enough.

Thats the equivilant to 2 smack packs in a normal 20lt brew. Surely thats got to be close for the starter? I know this is not an ideal situation but I don't see the point in giving up and letting my yeast go to waste. I have made this pils before with S-189 and enjoyed the results. I'm not looking to win prizes.

 

[matti]

If you no-chill....
What is the rush.
Get at least a sanitised 2L juice bottle or coke bottle and keep some wort in it and make a starter.
my 2c worth

 

[Beerbuoy]

If you no-chill....
What is the rush.
Get at least a sanitised 2L juice bottle or coke bottle and keep some wort in it and make a starter.
my 2c worth

2l will be far to small going by the Mr Malty pitching rate calculator.

 

[jonocarroll]

I dont know what you mean with that, does it mean youd like to keep the wort hot?

That probably would change the taste and colour, have you ever heard about hot wort oxidizing?
Thats the reason why the wort should be cooled down as fast as possible after boiling the hops.

I think he means that he will have 2 batches of 'no-chilled' wort, and is asking if he can pitch one, and leave the other sealed, cooled.

No problems with the no-chilling side.

Oh, and as an aside - I'm not so sure about your 'hot wort oxidizing' argument. And that's not the reason you need to cool down wort fast. I've traced the argument of fast chilling back to the reduction of DMS (or SMM) vs cooling time. No-chilling is a curiosity in that respect.

but for a Pilsener thats not enough.

I think this is where the problem is.

The question is - are there sufficient cells in an activator to adequately ferment 10L of wort to pilsner standards? This is probably getting to the fine line between enough and not enough. If there's not enough to ferment 20L satisfactorily, maybe - just maybe - there's enough to do 10L, but I'm not sure what would happen when you dump the remaining wort on top - you haven't made a 10L starter, you've fermented 10L of wort. Starters behave differently to normal fermentation, so you may not end up creating enough yeast to handle the entire batch.

If it's all you've got, and you're willing to risk the batch, go for it, and let us know what happens. My guess is that the yeast will make it through the first 10L, but will be stressed when you add the remaining wort.


Good luck :icon_cheers:

 

[Supra-Jim]

If there's not enough to ferment 20L satisfactorily, maybe - just maybe - there's enough to do 10L, but I'm not sure what would happen when you dump the remaining wort on top - you haven't made a 10L starter, you've fermented 10L of wort. Starters behave differently to normal fermentation, so you may not end up creating enough yeast to handle the entire batch.

QB makes an important point here!! If you're are no-chilling, i don't see the issue with time. Take the time to build a reasonable starter, and ferment the entire batch in one go.

Cheers SJ

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I think when Zwickel says "its not enough" he isn't talking about a smack pack being sufficient for 10L - he is talking about a 10L starter being enough in the first place

Lets take Mr Malty as a guide, I trust the figures there and its what I use.

Using a "simple starter" which is what you have if you just ferment out the first beer..

For 40 litres of 1.050 pilsner - it says you need 740 billion cells... which requires a 16.6L starter if you started with two smack packs (fresh mind you) in the first place!!

Here's what I would do. You have no-chill on your side in this one.

Make a 3L starter from DME - ferment it out and decant off the beer. Pitch that 200billion cells into 10L of your main beer, at lager temperatures, aerate well - give it 36hrs and then add the rest off your wort... if you see any signs of active fermentation, add the rest of the wort immediately instead of waiting the full 36hrs, aerate again and you are off. You don't want to let it start fermenting because you will need to add oxygen again and you want to do this when the yeast isn't yet in active fermentation.

Your steps should give you (roughly) Step #1: Smack pack into 3L = 2.5billion cells Step#2: 2.5billion into 10L = 700-750billion cells Step #3: 750billion cells ferments your 40L perfectly.

That's what I would do if I were you and were looking for the best possible result given your equipment limitations.

Thirsty

 

[Beerbuoy]

I think when Zwickel says "its not enough" he isn't talking about a smack pack being sufficient for 10L - he is talking about a 10L starter being enough in the first place

Lets take Mr Malty as a guide, I trust the figures there and its what I use.

Using a "simple starter" which is what you have if you just ferment out the first beer..

For 40 litres of 1.050 pilsner - it says you need 740 billion cells... which requires a 16.6L starter if you started with two smack packs (fresh mind you) in the first place!!

Here's what I would do. You have no-chill on your side in this one.

Make a 3L starter from DME - ferment it out and decant off the beer. Pitch that 200billion cells into 10L of your main beer, at lager temperatures, aerate well - give it 36hrs and then add the rest off your wort... if you see any signs of active fermentation, add the rest of the wort immediately instead of waiting the full 36hrs, aerate again and you are off. You don't want to let it start fermenting because you will need to add oxygen again and you want to do this when the yeast isn't yet in active fermentation.

Your steps should give you (roughly) Step #1: Smack pack into 3L = 2.5billion cells Step#2: 2.5billion into 10L = 700-750billion cells Step #3: 750billion cells ferments your 40L perfectly.

That's what I would do if I were you and were looking for the best possible result given your equipment limitations.

Thirsty

Thanks Thirsty

That should be something I can do.

Cheers

 

[yardy]

apologies if others have said this, why not make a 1030 ish small beer and then pitch the freshly brewed pils onto the yeast ?

cheers
Yard

 

[Thirsty Boy]

apologies if others have said this, why not make a 1030 ish small beer and then pitch the freshly brewed pils onto the yeast ?

cheers
Yard

What would you make though?? I don't know any decent lagers that are that low in alcohol. Mind you - if you can make a good low alcohol ale - I suppose there isn't any reason that you cant make a good low alcohol lager.

Anyone make them? Any good recipes?

 

[Zwickel]

sorry brewers, my english is not good enough to express what Id like to explain.

We could talk about how to make a Pilsener, or we could talk about how to make a beer at all.

If were talking about to make a Pilsener, I gotta say, without having a sufficient amount of Hefe (yeast), forget the whole project.

Youd could rescue that kind of brew into an Ale, no probs, but it will never become a Pilsener, neither a Lager beer.

Sorry, you may call me a smart ass, but we have to be honest.

Cheers mates


edit: spelling

 

[Beerbuoy]

neither a Lager beer.

Not sure how you have come to that conclusion. If it is fermented at 12 deg with a lager yeast and comes down to around 1010 SG before some extended cold conditioning (read lagering) then that makes it a lager in my book. Maybe not a prise winning pilsener but I have made it clear that is not what I am after. As for rescueing it into an ale, you must think I'm a hillbilly.
I was hoping for some help when I posted not for someone to get on their soapbox and carry on like the style police.

 

[Zwickel]

....I was hoping for some help when I posted not for someone to get on their soapbox and carry on like the style police.

sorry mate, I only wanted to help you.

:icon_cheers:

 

[clean brewer]

I'm planning on brewing a Bohemian Pilsner this weekend but I think I've got in over my head when it comes to the starter I'm going to need.

Beerbouy, I think you answered your own Question mate... Is your Bo-Pils in 2 Cubes? If its in 2, then just brew 1 and build a proper starter from your Wyeast pack for the 1 batch.... If you want to brew a whole 40 litres, you will need to build a monster starter to pitch and thats after decanting starter wort before pitching(after chilling)....

Best bet is to just make enough Starter from the 1 pack for 20ltrs and then salvage yeast from that batch and pitch onto the next batch..

I think the guys are just saying that it wont be a proper Bo-Pils/Lager if you dont brew it correctly and pitch the correct amounts of yeast properly, no-one is saying its to win any prizes but just to do correctly and not waste all your effort....

:icon_cheers: CB