To Mash Out Or Not To Mash Out

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Jazman

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i havent done a mashout and i batch sparge but i do aim to have the grain bed around 74 deg mark but id plan a t a latter stage when my brewery is set permantly to do a step mash or even a decotion
 

Troob

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The enzymes are not denatured as quick as all that, esp alpha. Viscosity is not changed that much by a few degrees difference.

Mashout I don't bother with, except sometimes a decoct to mash out to get some noce melanoidins
 

warrenlw63

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sosman said:
I am curious to hear what the PITA is re adding boiling water?
[post="84517"][/post]​
Fairly simple... Running out of room. :D

Warren -
 

warrenlw63

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Let's face it, this could be argued forever.

When it gets down to brass tacks the easiest approach would be to do 2 similar brews. Mashout one batch and don't bother the next batch.

Would then be just a case of recording the differences (if any). Yes it has it's merits in certain grist bills OTOH makes bugger all difference in others. :unsure:

In fact I'd be almost certain if somebody was enterprising enough to hit the search key they'd find that this one has been hashed out before. You might even be lucky enough to find a few candidates who've changed camps either way.

It's becoming a bit of an old chestnut. <_<

In 3 months time I'll cross the floor and start doing mashouts and espouse their virtues. :lol:

Warren -
 

sosman

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On page 52 Fix says:
... the best results are generally obtained with a sparge in the range of 74-75 C and with water whose alkalinity is as low as possible (25 mg/L or below).
 

sosman

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warrenlw63 said:
sosman said:
I am curious to hear what the PITA is re adding boiling water?
[post="84517"][/post]​
Fairly simple... Running out of room. :D
[post="84570"][/post]​
Ok but surely you still ultimately have to heat the same amount of water? How does boiling it take up more space?
 

warrenlw63

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You've lost me sos? :blink: What I mean is there's no room left to add the boiling water to the tun to bring the grainbed up to mashout temps. So I don't bother. If that's lazy then that's me. ;)

Warren -
 

chiller

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On Tannin extraction --

This is far less a problem with or for those of the batch sparge camp. The final run off from the tun is often near 1.020 whereas a trickler can end up in the VERY low range of 1.005 very easily.

To reduce the problems associated with astringency you need a final runoff ph in the area of 5.7 [at least below 6]. That is the runoff of the liquid out of the tun.

When and if I ever trickle sparge [fly/continuous] I always adjust my entire brewday water to below a ph of 6 and then never encounter any flavour problems from sparging.

Phosphoric acid is ideal as a means to achieving this lower ph but dilute the acid to about 1:10 then use that more diluted concentrate as that allow a bigger margin for error.

If you do "nuke" your water by over acidifying it you will learn a valuable lesson about liquid buffers and about the point of rapid change in said liquid when the buffer is passed.

Steve
 

Kai

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I mashed out once, by removing a few litres from the mash tun, bringing it to the boil and returning it. It was very easy to do, but I don't recall noticing any benefit so I haven't bothered doing it again. I may try again one day to see if it does improve my efficiency, I have a very low efficiency system, around 60-65%.
 

Trent

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I was actually gonna ask if you could take some first runnings, boil it and add it as mash out, cause on some of my bigger beers I will have no room for mash out liquid (I currnetly just add all the sparge water at 82C in my "no sparge" system, brings the whole lot up to 73 or so)
If you drain off the first runnings, and add sparge water to brinbg the bed temp up to 75, as stated by Andrew QLD :
Edit: to raise the temp of your grain bed (assuming a grain/water ratio of 1:3)from 65c to 76c you would need to add 12lt of 89c sparge water, which is easy for batch spargers but not so easy if you fly sparge.
what temp sparge water would I need if I were adding 24L of sparge water?
I will try and look it up in How to Brew, but I lent it to a mate, so does anyone know offhand?
All th ebest
Trent
 

chiller

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Just for a laugh and increased efficiency I fly sparged today and did all the pH "stuff" to ensure a reasonable run off.


I adjusted all water at the start of the day to 5.5 and at the end of a VERY LONG sparge the final run off was 5.6 -- below the required ph of 6 so hopefully no tannins.

the brewhouse efficiency was 90% but really batch sparging is so much QUICKER.

Trading time for increased efficiency -- I'll take time, everytime.

Normally batch sparging I get 75 78%. I didn't do a mashout today but did take the sparge water to 95c to give a grain bed of 75c.

Steve
 

sosman

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chiller said:
Normally batch sparging I get 75 78%. I didn't do a mashout today but did take the sparge water to 95c to give a grain bed of 75c.
[post="84685"][/post]​
Ah - you don't have a Jarah mill :p
 

PeterS

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chiller said:
On Tannin extraction --


If you do "nuke" your water by over acidifying it you will learn a valuable lesson about liquid buffers and about the point of rapid change in said liquid when the buffer is passed.

Steve
[post="84618"][/post]​
Steve, could you elaborate on this a bit.? What sort of change are we to expect if it is over acidified.?

:chug:
PeterS....
 

chiller

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PeterS said:
chiller said:
On Tannin extraction --


If you do "nuke" your water by over acidifying it you will learn a valuable lesson about liquid buffers and about the point of rapid change in said liquid when the buffer is passed.

Steve
[post="84618"][/post]​
Steve, could you elaborate on this a bit.? What sort of change are we to expect if it is over acidified.?

:chug:
PeterS....
[post="84696"][/post]​
The reason i suggest diluting the acid before adding to your water is to give better control over the rate of decrease in pH.

As you add acid to the water, normally there is a buffer or natural resistance to pH change that seems to hold the pH at a point no matter how much acid you seem to add. Then! all of a sudden the pH will drop rapidly as you have passed a certain point in the make up of the water.

let's say your water is a pH of 7.8 -- you may add 5 ml of diluted acid and only drop the pH to the buffer point and that may be say 6.4 but adding another 5 ml of acid may suddenly drop the water to 4 or below therefore you need to acidify your water in stages.

Disclaimer: I'm not a water chemist but the principles are correct :)


Steve
 

Bilph

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Great thread. A lot of good info and good discussion.
I mash out because I can, quite easily, because I have a direct heat mash tun.
I have found a more consistent grain bed temp can give up to 15% better efficiency with my system. As was pointed out elsewhere, it's a [batch] sparging issue for me. I don't think denaturing enzymes is an issue with the grains I use given their high modification.
 

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