Time on the Yeast

[UsernameTaken]

I am fermenting, dry hopping and cold crashing all in the one vessel and was wondering what people thought was the maximum time I could leave the beer on the yeast before unwanted flavours occur?

I am fermenting at 18c and will dry hop at about the 10 day mark and then cold crash at the 14 day mark at 4c when fermentation is well finished and beer has rested.

So how long do you think can I safely cold crash before introducing problems?

Beers vary from Pale Ales to IPA's

Thanks,
UNT

 

[Thefatdoghead]

I would focus more on the type of yeast and where the beer is at after the 5 day mark.
If your dry hopping im assuming your doing an ipa or pale ale so i would do that dry hop at 15 degrees.
I would then ramp down to 3 for 3 days (depending on yeast).
I would then get the beer off the hops.
If you want more aroma off hops dont leave the beer on the hops for longer. Use a fresh hop charge and so same for 3 more days.
Do you have to leave your beer 10 days to dry hop?
If you do then you need to look at brewing process and yeast health. If its a time thing with work then disregard.

 

[UsernameTaken]

US05 for my IPA and Danstar Windsor for my Pale Ale.

I am happy with 3 days of dry hopping, but was just wondering how long I can safely cold crash for after that.

Maybe I should wait until fermentation has well and truly stopped, then dry hops for 3 days then cold crash for 3 days then bottle?

UNT

 

[talco92]

Cold crashing isn't a bad thing for your beer, and you can cold crash for a while.
Do you mean how long can you cold crash before there are no yeasties floating around to prime your bottles?

If you bulk prime, then you're likely to stir up some trub as you're transferring to a secondary vessel, in which case you'll definitely have enough yeast.
Not sure about how long it takes for all the yeast to fall out of suspension, but I'm guessing its a while. You could safely cold crash for 4-5 days with an ale yeast and still have enough yeast for bottle priming. It may just need longer to condition.

This link backs up most of what I just said http://www.homebrewingstoredirectory.com/8-things-you-should-know-about-cold-crashing-beer/

This link has some similar info, but contradicts the first link re: dry hopping http://foodbeerstuff.com/cold-crashing-faq-home-brewing/

all the best

 

[UsernameTaken]

I mean how long can I leave the beer on the yeast before it starts to be adversely effected?

For example if I fermented + dry hopped for 14 days and then cold crashed for a further 7 days in the same vessel thats 3 weeks on the yeast!

Would this cause any problems with unwanted flavors from the yeast?

Thanks,
UNT

 

[Jack of all biers]

Cause any problems. No. 3 weeks on the yeast cake, even at normal ale temps 18-25C won't be a problem (I qualify here by saying "usually under 'normal' conditions - whatever normal means!).

Of course logical thinking brings us to a conclusion that lower temperatures (you cold crash for the last week) will increase the amount of time that the yeast will hold out without 'self terminating', but anything can happen. I have a rule (good or bad) that 3 weeks is the maximum that I'll leave a beer on the primary yeast cake. This may stem from my readings of Palmer (at least my memory is such) and this rule has never (I repeat NEVER) led me (I repeat ME) astray.

You state "unwanted flavors" (I note you use American spelling here) from the yeast. unwanted flavours (english spelling) from leaving the beer on the yeast cake too long are (apparently) very noticable. Fortunately I can't tell you what aromas/flavours they are, but autolysis is something that apparently you will not put casually down to "hmm, underpitched that one a little. Still good, but maybe I left it on the yeast cake a little too long and those rotten flesh flavours are too strong even for my palate" (excuse me, but on my second weizen bock for the night

 

[mstrelan]

Do you want to justify leaving it longer so you can postpone packaging or do you want permission to package 48 hours after primary fermentation is complete?

 

[Mardoo]

I recently left a pale ale on the yeast for about 10 weeks at 2C. I didn't like the post-ferment samples and was figuring I'd just bin it. Then I read a different thread about leaving finished beer on the yeast to develop a bit. Gave it a go. The flavour improved, even my wife liked it, keg blew a couple weeks ago. There was no noticeable oxidation in the beer from the keg.

I'd say you'll be fine.

 

[UsernameTaken]

Thanks for all the advice.

I am just looking for the best practice and am neither in a rush nor looking to prolong the process!

I have only recently started cold crashing so I am trying to work out the best timing for fermenting, dry hopping, cold crashing and bottling.

And I had also heard that longer than 3 weeks in the primary could introduce an unpleasant sourness from the yeast?

I am currently 6 days into fermentation and I am down to 1.016, so a couple more days should hit terminal gravity, then I'll dry hop for 3 days, then cold crashing for 4 days should see me bottling day 15!

Or, if I was led to believe there would be any benefit to the beer, I could either dry hop at fermentation temp longer, cold crash crash longer or both?

It's a highly hoped american style pale ale I am trying to make.

Cheers,
UNT

 

[kunfaced]

whatever you do, don't leave a lager on the yeast cake and forget about it at d-rest. I don't know the max time limit, but two weeks is way too long...

 

[MickGC]

I work a 2 on 2 off roster so it is not unusual for me to leave a beer in fermenter at 16-18 for a month, no issues so far

 

[Mardoo]

OK, best practice is to take it off when it's finished with the fermentation and the cold crash. No good reason to leave finished beer on the cake, unless you're trying to develop flavours from leaving it on the cake. Usually you won't need to cold crash for more than a week. I would take lagers and kolsch off the yeast cake for the lagering period.

 

[neal32]

The dogma goes that you need to get it off the yeast ASAP but I'm not so sure. Has anyone actually had negative experiences from leaving the beer on yeast for too long? I've gone 4 weeks before, no issues.

 

[neal32]

The dogma goes that you need to get it off the yeast ASAP but I'm not so sure. Has anyone actually had negative experiences from leaving the beer on yeast for too long? I've gone 4 weeks before, no issues.

I've also lagered on the yeast cake with no issues.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

I have left Ales on the yeast cake for 4 to 5 weeks at Ale Temps. They were as good as any other. Chilling just extends that range in general I believe.
The only bad flavour effects I got was with a couple of liquid yeast strains I tried. The yeast did the job but died in a yeast cake. Some soap flavours.
I conclude that liquid yeast don't travel as well across the globe as dry yeast. Maybe its a yeast count rate. I'm not sure.

 

[Jack of all biers]

The dogma goes that you need to get it off the yeast ASAP but I'm not so sure. Has anyone actually had negative experiences from leaving the beer on yeast for too long? I've gone 4 weeks before, no issues.

I'm not sure ASAP is the dogma. Best practice does not equate to dogma. One has leeway, the other does not allow any.

Off the yeast cake once the primary fermentation is fully completed is best practice, but like with all things there is leeway. There are also yeast cakes and there are yeast cakes. If you have a heat pad underneath the fermenter and it is heating the yeast cake directly, you are asking for trouble. If you have lots of trub and yeast that are under pitched and not healthy then you are asking for trouble. If you have well pitched yeast at fermentation temps that are in the low to normal range (lager or ale) then you will have more leeway. Follow my drift?

Yes others have had bad experiences from leaving the beer on the yeast cake for too long (or not that long, but with random acts that happen from time to time) and when autolysis happens it is apparently not a beer you end up drinking. There are plenty of examples that have been posted on this and other forums of forgetful or unknowing brewers having a beer turn out bad because it was left on the yeast cake too long. Read enough threads and one will find the posts. Soapy flavours, rotten flesh odour etc, etc...

So I repeat, dogma no. I don't think there is a set time period that one must remove the beer from the yeast cake, but there is a best practice that is gauged from experience. Experience that not all of us need to encounter to learn from. One will just about always get away with 3 weeks (even under conditions that are not ideal). With good practices, one will likely get away with months quite often, but there is no benefit from leaving a beer on a yeast cake which consists of trub and dead or hibernating yeast. There is always enough yeast left in suspension after a 2-3 week stint in the primary fermenter to then condition in secondary or bottle/keg. That is if the primary fermentation is done with good pitch rates and ideal wort conditions set for the yeast being pitched.

 

[UsernameTaken]

Thanks again everyone, I am now feeling confident that 3 weeks or slightly under is perfectly safe for the fermentation/dry hop/cold crash cycle in the one vessel.

So I guess my last question (for now at least) is cold crash duration to benefit ratio?

It's seems most suggest a minimum of 3 or 4 days and a maximum of 7?

I am in a temp controlled fridge and was planning to crash to 3c.

Cheers.
UNT

 

[Mardoo]

AFAIK cold crash is pretty much solely for dropping the yeast, so however long that takes. It's somewhat yeast dependent. If I fine with gelatine I myself go 3 to 4 days, if not a week. Really though, there's not a precise schedule to it.

 

[UsernameTaken]

A professional brewer just told me this;

I would never leave beer on yeast for longer than 2.5 weeks ( 7-10 days warm, 7-10 cold) in a homebrew situation. Commercially you can dump yeast from bottom of fermenter, therefore keeping it colder longer before transferring or filtering it.

 

[Jack of all biers]

A professional brewer just told me this;

I would never leave beer on yeast for longer than 2.5 weeks ( 7-10 days warm, 7-10 cold) in a homebrew situation. Commercially you can dump yeast from bottom of fermenter, therefore keeping it colder longer before transferring or filtering it.

And he/she is about right with the timings. That's about all you need to ferment and then cold crash to reduce yeast in the final beer. Because you want to dry hop for a longer period, you've added in some days in between. 2.5 weeks is only a 3 - 4 days less than the 3 weeks you were planning so I wouldn't get hung up about it.

Regarding cold crashing + 1 to Mardoo.