The Evolution Of Vb

[maxymoo]

Just in regards to the original question, were VB, Carlton, etc always "high temperature lagers"? Or would they have used ale yeasts back in the day?

Pride of Ringwood, Australian 2-row, would they have tasted like Cooper's? (or is their yeast special?)

I guess I'm wondering what would an authentic "Australian Pale Ale" recipe look like? I'm kind of interested in recreating some more "historic" Aussie styles.

 

[ShredMaster]

I know I'm a bit late for this topic but it was an interesting read and got me thinking again!!

I was discussing something similar recently about how the younger generations are not really beer drinkers in general. I think the posts here have nailed it on the head: the taste has changed from when "Dad" used to drink beer to now. I'm 32 and my family weren't big beer drinkers so my first foray into beer was courtesy of a bunch of good mates drinking megaswill, not really an enticing entrance to the world of beer in hindsight. I couldn't really see what the point was of drinking something which didn't taste great and going "ooh that's better".... It took me quite a few years to learn more about beer styles let alone what the brands were pumping out as "beer".

I'm hoping this craft beer trend brings drinkers back to beer and encourages the younger drinkers to give beer a shot. It's a shame that the industry dictates that beer=crap as far as flavour goes and tends to scare new drinkers across to pre-mixes, spirits and even wine. I mean wine, hell I have a mate who "got into" wine a few years back. Started out buying a few bottles of plonk at 2 for $20 or similar, liked one and not the other then stepped up to $15 bottles and sometimes the top-shelf $25 bottles. Went around judging wine by the apparent type of wine (Pinot Nior, Sav Blanc, or whatever) and then by the price tag on the bottle. Flavour? Taste? Well, as long as it doesn't taste "bad" then it must taste good, some bottles being better than others. The analogy is: trying to get a new drinker into beer by using megaswill will NOT make for a good experience about what beer has to offer. The same can be said for launching them face first into craft beer and having their head explode from the new flavours.

Apart from the taste, another aspect of todays younger beer drinkers is advertising and marketing, as somebody said earlier. Personally, I stayed away from certain brands of beer more for their social acceptance rather than anything else. I wound up drinking Crownies and Corona's at $8 a pop like my friends did. Not because they tasted alot better (Im still not a Corona fan) but because it was bad to be seen drinking VB (Very Bogan) or XXXX or anything else considered "cheap" beer. I personally still think Crown tends to be a cheap beer in a bloody nice bottle, each to their own I guess.

I digress. The point I was actually going to make is that the beer industry was going gangbusters for a while there, great beer, great culture. Then it seemed to have bowed to commercial greed and cut costs (including manufacturing process therefore flavour etc) and increased volume sales, marketing and distribution to become a duopoly. YAY for the corporations! Too bad they didn't think about the emerging drinkers and what they want in terms of flavour etc. Some chicks like beer, most tend to like something with more taste. I mean, Vodka Cruisers, seriously they taste like cordial and get you pissed after a few. They want to be pissed and taste good while doing that. Beer can do that too but most peoples first exposure to beer is VB/XXXX/New etc and not a nice start....

I just wish the beer giants do some long and hard research and find some flavours of their beers that will stop people taking a gulp, gasping, screwing up their face and ordering a Raspberry Vodka instead and losing another potential beer drinker to the instant-good-flavour market.

Anyway, a nice read of a few experiences from the past. Always good to remember...

Cheers,
Shred.

 

[pk.sax]

I frankly think that the big brewers also must control the spirits and mixed drinks trade. Someone might be able to confirm/deny that. By tuning one business to another, it's damn easy to puppeteer the drinkers. Consider the logistics of serving a pint of beer at the bar vs the cost of serving a rum n coke. Also, you can drink more rum n come in a session than you'd normally drink beers. They just don't fill you up like beer does. Actually, the push towards lagers that are ultra crisp is also a push towards encouraging binge sessions. Again, money. Those barely malty lagers with bugger all hops last a lot longer in tanks and the supply chain can easily absorb short term demand variability. This in turn makes large consolidated breweries profitable.
Brewing ales is more at the mercy of customer demand and it makes more sense to brew them on the micro/semi-micro scale. Definitely not the dream of big corporations. Already, we see how much crap LC & other breweries get for variations between batches. It is subconsciously rated the deciding factor even by home brewers as how good your brewing is by how consistent you can get in brewing a given beer. I consider it the McDonaldisation of beer. No matter where you go, you can get the exact same crap quality anywhere in Australia - the worst cheapest beer that could be made - is standardized and those standards rigorously adhered to.

Well, that's driving efficiency to the death of beer. As long as the money flowing from beer sales can be consolidated into fewer hands, it's more efficient. And crap. And sadly, no longer beer.

 

[maxymoo]

So I found something about the early history of Australian beer, a chapter in a book on google books,

apparently, in the words of a visiting British brewer, 1880s Victorian beers were generally top fermented english style ales, with a 'sickly flavour and bouquet, [and] with an unpleasant bitter for a companion' due to poor temperature control and an excessive use of sugar cane ... so maybe a cooper's kit and 2 kilos of sugar fermented in a 30degree shed actually is an historically "authentic" australian beer?!

VB in East Melbourne originally went bust in 1892, (and i'm betting that their actual historic 'traditional ale' wasn't anything special), reopened as a lager brewery a few years later to try and compete with Fosters, but bust again by 1904. Meanwhile artificially carbonated ales, began to gain popularity; this reminds me of American pale ales, fizzier, colder and more refreshing?

Well by the end of WWI, Australians were drinking lots of imported German lager, and so when the brewers consolidated and bought the equipment for lager, (ice machines, etc) there was a big market for it, and so that's why most Australian beers are lagers. As a young tacker, I do wonder what the "megaswills" tasted like back in the day. Maybe they were more like Cascade lager or Boag's premium?

I like the idea of an "Australian Pale Ale"... but what would this be? Coopers is good but it's got a very characteristic taste due to its yeast. Maybe there's room for more APA beers with a focus on Australian hop varieties? I don't really like Stone and Wood, it's a bit *too* passionfruity for my tastes... but POR is a bit boring too...

Any ideas for an "Australian Pale Ale?"

 

[peas_and_corn]

I would argue that an Australian Pale Ale 'style' is Coopers.

 

[Innes]

From what I understand, CUB and LN each have a single yeast strain which they use to produce all the mainstream beers in their range. Its no wonder that the beer they produce today tastes nothing like the beer from days gone by.

As each of the older breweries were consumed by the giants over the years, even if the brand was retained, the flavour of the beer was changed because of the new house yeast strain being used.

 

[Glot]

We certainly were sheltered back then. Remember the great beer strike by CUB? We used to line up at the local BS on a Friday and try get a hold of what ever they had managed to import from interstate. Even then it was rationed to a slab a person. All these brands we had never heard of. I can also recall I stopped drinking VB when I realised it was that and not all beers that gave me one hell of a hangover.

 

[Glot]

We certainly were sheltered back then. Remember the great beer strike by CUB? We used to line up at the local BS on a Friday and try get a hold of what ever they had managed to import from interstate. Even then it was rationed to a slab a person. All these brands we had never heard of. I can also recall I stopped drinking VB when I realised it was that and not all beers that gave me one hell of a hangover.

 

[Bribie G]

Interesting that this thread has been necroed

Since 2011 a couple of things have happened that are pertinent to the thread:

CUB, to maintain trademarks, re-brewed quite a large amount of Brisbane Bitter and Bulimba Gold Top. They had to use modern ingredients but the head brewer stated that they stuck as closely to the old recipes as possible. They weren't to everybody's taste but I found the Bulimba to be very reminiscent of the old Queensland Carlton Draught from the 1970s before they moved the brewery to Yatala. I did a side by side with the modern Carlton Draught and it was head and shoulders above the latest version. Nice lingering hop bitterness and a clean clean flavour. Just about spot on.
The Brisbane Bitter actually seemed a bit too tasty compared to what I remember.

However the exercise proved that CUB have indeed changed the modern recipes, and that they can still churn out a reasonable beer if they wish.

The other surprise is that since I moved to the Mid North Coast of NSW I see that XXXX red (full strength) has migrated South and is now in many of the bottle shops here, so hope for the brew yet. Possibly since being taken over by Kirin they are dissolving some of the old State boundaries. Might get a six pack for old times sake.

And of course VB has been restored to 4.9%, not that it's much better for that

 

[rheffera]

I swear the VB of 15 years ago actually had flavor going for it. Now days i only drink hahn superdry on tap simply because pubs don't have anything else that i can stomach. Coopers stout at home.

 

[Bribie G]

Funny you should mention it, when I'm somewhere that doesn't even have a Coopers or JS tap I always go for Hahn Superdry. It actually has a pleasant caramelly twang from somewhere and a slight hop presence. It doesn't have the eau de wheelie bin taste of TED or the mouse piss background of VB. I'm ashamed to say that I'm not much of a Toohey's Old fan - I should be, but that's just my buds.

 

[of mice and gods]

Ahh this thread brought up some good memories.

Like a previous poster stated, the special release of the VB original in crown seal bottles (maybe 7 years ago?), was pretty good. I don't like the standard issue VB but found myself knocking back a few six packs of this when it was released. I also felt the same about the XXX Original Ale special release (also about 7-ish years ago?). I must admit at the time I was a solid XXXX draught drinker and didn't know much about craft type beers apart from they were "fruity".

Actually, I wish you could still find XXXX Draught.. I'd like to give it a go again.

Also, to build on the post relating to VB going from Ale to Lager, I believe that XXXX did the same move but some decades later? (Sorry, I had a quick squizz for references but can't remember where I read that).

And lastly, when we blame the brewery's for putting out mass-appealing shit beers.. we should really think about the amount of time and money that is put into the R&D of these recipes. They wouldn't release the beer unless market research showed it was likely to sell well.

I remember being involved in marketing research prior to the release of XXXX Summer bright. There was specific criteria you had to meet in order to be involved in the market research to make sure you were within the target market (I think the requirements for my panel were Male, 20-30, Single, income 30-45k & Also drank spirits). Anyway, we were presented with I think 14 different beers and asked to rate them on a supplied rating sheet. There were some bloody nice beers and some pretty crappy ones ranging from darker hoppy ales down to super pale watery fizz pops. Anyway, let's just say 3 months later Summer bright came out, so i guess I was the only one giving high scores to the hoppier recipes...

They had their market, they did their research, they did tastings and the market apparently liked Summer bright and it seemingly continues to sell fairly well..

bugger.

Al

Also +1 to yobs Thirsty Dog being utter shit.

 

[Bribie G]

It's also interesting that NSW still has beers that were once classics back in the 60s and 70s but have all been watered down to 4% ABV and presumably sell ok as they are even in the smaller bottle shops. I think they are for an elderly market, the sorts of guys who were very loyal to a brew and wouldn't consider drinking anything else. Often seen around bowls clubs nowadays.

Tooheys Red (now just called Red)
Reschs Pilsner
Reschs Real Ale
Reschs DA

When QldKev came for a visit we tried a few, bloody woeful. I remember when DA was a pleasant malty almost brown ale back in the 70s.

 

[rheffera]

I give them credit for slowly and sneakily changing the recipe over time. If it was a sudden drastic change their market would disappear from under them because everyone would be complaining. Making your beer considerably shitter & not pissing off your consumer base en masse at the same time is no small achievement. I mean, a VB drinker knows what VB is. If you suddenly start using a different hop for bittering you may get a revolt from all the vb drinkers etc etc.

 

[HBHB]

In the artcle it says:

"In the whole of Queensland there would be no more than eight craft breweries while you can expect to see the same amount in the Melbourne CBD alone," he said.
He said a generation of drinkers were coming through who have been raised on sugary foods and preferred sweeter drinks such as wines and ciders​

Couple of possible reasons why that is:

1. Freight from the southern suppliers of grain and hops adds roughly 35% to the overall costs of goods by the time it hits the QLD border. About 48% increase by the time it hits north of the sunshine coast and about 80% increase to get it to Cairns. Odd how the majority of Australian imports enter this country at the point that is furthest away from the country of origin.

2. QLD Liquor Licensing laws are a lot more restrictive than both NSW and VIC in so many ways.

Martin

 

[Bridges]

Beer used to be cheap. Working class blokes and the young purchased it because they could afford it. Fast forward a lot more years than I have on the clock and you arrive at a point where alcopops and spirits are cheaper, thanks to some whacking great excise and other taxes. Thus tastes change. I hated the first few beers I had but enjoyed being drunk, gradually I found beers that I preferred and got to where I am today. Not a beer snob as such but I will seek out beers I like rather than just have a pot of swill. I also see this as giving rise to a heap of the pill popping that goes on today. Grab a $20 dollar pill, party all night. Or spend well over $100 on beer over the jump. I see the tax on beer making breweries try to cut corners and make it cheaper to keep selling the volume they want to, at a price that remains competitive. It's imported beer though that stuffs my argument, I still can't see how some imported beers can be so cheap. For example Ballast point IPA, awesome beer $20 a six pack, its come half way around the world is 7% abv. Beer made in abbotsford at CUB (carlton draught) comes 40 minutes down the road sells from $14 to $17 sixer. How can they not want to make a better product that may be a dollar or so a sixpack dearer? I'm not saying they should be making an IPA but carlton draught could still be a great beer if made better.

Wow that got big on me...

 

[Bribie G]

That's an interesting point that cheap parallel import beer is pouring into the marketplace. For example here in very conservative Country NSW our local bottle shop shifts heaps of Hooten, Mythos etc that Liquorstax import directly and flog off for around $30 a carton. The big two have their Henninger and Oettinger, and a whole heap of other euros riding on their coat tails like Furstenburg or Konig from Frankfurt. These are very nice beers compared to VB or CD and must surely be skewing the palate of an increasing number of Australians. You would think that now the duopoly are foreign owned their new masters would be thinking along the lines of more flavour to counter the assault from the bottlos.

Up to now they have countered the Euro threat by brewing the likes of Stella and Becks BUL which is all very well, but fifty bucks a slab, oh dear. Lost the plot methinks.

 

[jlm]

Beer made in abbotsford at CUB (carlton draught) comes 40 minutes down the road sells from $14 to $17 sixer. How can they not want to make a better product that may be a dollar or so a sixpack dearer? I'm not saying they should be making an IPA but carlton draught could still be a great beer if made better.

Wow that got big on me...

They don't want to 'cause it makes money as is. Their consumers don't want them to cause they're happy with it as is.

I don't look to mega breweries for craft beer (sessionable beer, yes) and if the bean counters knew me they wouldn't look to me for a regular amount of bucks week after week.

 

[spryzie]

Since I've started home brewing, If I'm at a bottleshop I'd rather grab a $15 bottle of plonk rather than a six-pack of beer.

Oddly, wine is cheaper than beer. And it tastes better if you're comparing a $15 six-pack to a $15 bottle of plonk.

Unless there's a coopers six-pack or extremely rarely a four-pack of MooBrew going for $15 - then it's a difficult choice.

 

[Rocker1986]

Also, to build on the post relating to VB going from Ale to Lager, I believe that XXXX did the same move but some decades later? (Sorry, I had a quick squizz for references but can't remember where I read that).

The old labels have it as XXXX Bitter Ale. The website states it to be a lager now so not sure when the change happened but I'd guess the 80s maybe? It would explain the change in the labels from XXXX Bitter Ale to just XXXX Bitter. Interestingly, that SSS BBQ Barns place opposite the Orient Hotel in the city has a neon XXXX Bitter Ale sign up on their wall. Who really knows... :lol: