System Wars / Anhc 2010

[SpillsMostOfIt]

It's kinda annoying that I have to bring it up, but...

A room of over 250 brewers, with a fair proportion of accredited and training beer judges considered a BIAB-brewed beer to be 'better' than the same beer brewed on HERMS and Gravity systems as part of the System Wars presentation.

Now, that has got to be worth the price of admission from the point of view of the online community who developed and/or popularised the technique.

 

[RdeVjun]

It's kinda annoying that I have to bring it up, but...

A room of over 250 brewers, with a fair proportion of accredited and training beer judges considered a BIAB-brewed beer to be 'better' than the same beer brewed on HERMS and Gravity systems as part of the System Wars presentation.

Now, that has got to be worth the price of admission from the point of view of the online community who developed and/or popularised the technique.

Hey, I was just going to ask! Great stuff, but regardless of the result- well done you guys! :icon_chickcheers:

Yeah too right, are there any resources for this available? There was talk from the committee of a proceedings (as is usual for national- scale conferences), but I haven't heard since if the idea was adopted. I'd dearly like to get hold of any System Wars material, in particular anything that makes the result official. Some noses badly need rubbing in it, not around here of course.

 

[dr K]

Yeah too right, are there any resources for this available? There was talk from the committee of a proceedings (as is usual for national- scale conferences), but I haven't heard since if the idea was adopted. I'd dearly like to get hold of any System Wars material, in particular anything that makes the result official. Some noses badly need rubbing in it, not around here of course.

I am sure it will be openly available, btw fantastic concept and great video (even better judging) perhaps the concept can be expanded to test plate chiller vs immersion chiller vs counterflow chiller vs no chill next time !!

K

 

[bconnery]

It's kinda annoying that I have to bring it up, but...

A room of over 250 brewers, with a fair proportion of accredited and training beer judges considered a BIAB-brewed beer to be 'better' than the same beer brewed on HERMS and Gravity systems as part of the System Wars presentation.

Now, that has got to be worth the price of admission from the point of view of the online community who developed and/or popularised the technique.

Well in point of fact the vote was almost entirely split, and if the 'standard' systems formed a coalition they'd have held a majority...

Please note this is in now way BIAB bashing. I have enjoyed many a great beer brewed on this system by other brewers, I just think it needs to be pointed out before things get carried away.

Besides, if anybody was in doubt I think Barry Crantons's description of his system should have illustrated clearly that the brewer maketh the beer!

 

[MattC]

Besides, if anybody was in doubt I think Barry Crantons's description of his system should have illustrated clearly that the brewer maketh the beer!

Any chance of clarification on this point?????

 

[BrenosBrews]

Any chance of clarification on this point?????

Gordon Strong, Barry Cranston & Asher Mitchell did a panel on "What It Takes to Be a Champion Brewer" & Barry described his system as involving a picnic table, at least 2 milk crates & all done under a fruit tree of some sort. It was one of those "you had to be there" moments to get the full effect. If memory serves me correct Gordon has a gravity system & Asher has HERMS.

 

[DU99]

just proves you dont need all the latest whiz bang gear to make a award winning brew.... :icon_cheers:

 

[mika]

It's kinda annoying that I have to bring it up, but...

A room of over 250 brewers, with a fair proportion of accredited and training beer judges considered a BIAB-brewed beer to be 'better' than the same beer brewed on HERMS and Gravity systems as part of the System Wars presentation.

Now, that has got to be worth the price of admission from the point of view of the online community who developed and/or popularised the technique.

After all the stuffing around, can we really be sure that the beers were marked correctly ? Who know's...
I found it odd that a gravity system produced much clearer wort than a HERMS, perhaps it was just my pour ? Certainly at voting time, patches of voting co-incidence could be seen that tended to match the order in which the beers were handed out.
Personally, the person I was sitting next to and myself detected an almost 'astringent' type quality in the 'supposed' BIAB brew. Which may have been our perception of bitterness due to the BIAB and HERMS using counterflow chillers which results in the wort remaining hotter for longer.
I personally couldn't pick between the supposed Gravity and HERMS brew, voted for Gravity as it turns out (maybe ?), simply because it was clearer.
I think a lot more factors needed to be tied down before a true victory can be declared. It's also pretty hard to compare 3 brews at different temps and carbonation levels.
I'll grant you that BIAB brews certainly seem to be incredibly similar to brews produced on traditional 3 vessel systems and whilst I didn't appreciate the allegedly BIAB brewed beer as much as the others, I certainly wouldn't pour it out.

Overall I think the best comment of the day was that 'The true winner is brewing'...

Btw; Is it worth noting that whilst the BIAB brew was produced in a shorter time frame, it required twice as many brewers to do so ?

 

[MattC]

Gordon Strong, Barry Cranston & Asher Mitchell did a panel on "What It Takes to Be a Champion Brewer" & Barry described his system as involving a picnic table, at least 2 milk crates & all done under a fruit tree of some sort. It was one of those "you had to be there" moments to get the full effect. If memory serves me correct Gordon has a gravity system & Asher has HERMS.

Thanks BB

 

[Thirsty Boy]

oh ho, there's lots of "its not really a victory because...." rationalisation going on - but the rules were set, the bout was fought and a winner was declared. Fair enough, it was a win by 80 votes to 78 which make it pretty damn close - but a win is a win... so nerny ner ner to the losers. Try not to cry out in public where everyone can see - its unmanly.

80 Votes BIAB
78 Votes Gravity
25 Votes HERMS

and 3-1 for the BIAB by the people who actually brewed the beers.

A narrow but clear win. So there!

At any rate, I think that Spills was trying not only to brag a bit... but also to congratulate AHB in general. This forum is where BIAB was generated. People and conversations had here, have resulted in the development of a system of brewing that, at the very least, holds its own on a quality of beer produced front - and has proved pretty effective at attracting new people into AG brewing. A very real world positive result, for a virtual community. We might bitch and moan, we might have our flame wars and petty arguments, but at the end of the day - we are capable of doing some pretty good stuff too.

Its not a bad thing for this place to give itself a pat on the back every now and again - this is as good an excuse as any.


Edit - Fair enough, we did gang up on them. But have you ever seen Hammond and I brew together?? Its like a three legged race! If anything we were handicapped....

 

[felten]

I would have liked to see you 2 interviewed in the BIAB episode on TBN, it would have actually been worth something then.

 

[bonj]

oh ho, there's lots of "its not really a victory because...." rationalisation going on - but the rules were set, the bout was fought and a winner was declared. Fair enough, it was a win by 80 votes to 78 which make it pretty damn close - but a win is a win... so nerny ner ner to the losers. Try not to cry out in public where everyone can see - its unmanly.

80 Votes BIAB
78 Votes Gravity
25 Votes HERMS

and 3-1 for the BIAB by the people who actually brewed the beers.

A narrow but clear win. So there!

At any rate, I think that Spills was trying not only to brag a bit... but also to congratulate AHB in general. This forum is where BIAB was generated. People and conversations had here, have resulted in the development of a system of brewing that, at the very least, holds its own on a quality of beer produced front - and has proved pretty effective at attracting new people into AG brewing. A very real world positive result, for a virtual community. We might bitch and moan, we might have our flame wars and petty arguments, but at the end of the day - we are capable of doing some pretty good stuff too.

Its not a bad thing for this place to give itself a pat on the back every now and again - this is as good an excuse as any.


Edit - Fair enough, we did gang up on them. But have you ever seen Hammond and I brew together?? Its like a three legged race! If anything we were handicapped....

I echo what bconnery said above. I have tasted quite a few BIAB beers and enjoyed a great many of them. I personally think "the brewer maketh the beer" and I believe that was reflected in the results. I have a slight suspicion that the HERMS brew could have been over sparged, but hyperthetically had it not been, what would the result have been? I propose it would have been a fairly even split all three ways, which is a great result for BIAB. Just goes to show that all three methods are equally valid and that BIAB is a viable alternative to the traditional 3 vessel system.... That's the conclusion I came to anyway. Your interpretation may be different.

Perhaps we need a 6 way double blind placebo controlled study, eh Ben? :lol: :icon_drunk:

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

I am sure it will be openly available, btw fantastic concept and great video (even better judging) perhaps the concept can be expanded to test plate chiller vs immersion chiller vs counterflow chiller vs no chill next time !!

K

I'm really interested in this myself. We chilled our BIAB wort with Dan's plate chiller he won in some brewing competition, Nik chilled his HERMS-wort with a counterflow chiller and Paul chilled his Newtonian wort with an immersion chiller. The beers got to me at quite different temperatures, but in spite of that, they were different in a way that did not make sense from a wort-production point of view. HERMS was more astringent than ours and Gravity was less. I'd love to find out more.

I think No-Chill would stand out hugely from the other chills, but am eager to see a contest based on otherwise same wort production. Clearly the best way to do that would be with BIAB wort.

Edit - Fair enough, we did gang up on them. But have you ever seen Hammond and I brew together?? Its like a three legged race! If anything we were handicapped....

More like a three legged pig on stilts. I've long said that a good brewer could make good beer in a plastic bag and a bucket. But, put two brewers of any calibre together and you're lucky if you get potable liquid.

 

[bconnery]

Perhaps we need a 6 way double blind placebo controlled study, eh Ben? :lol: :icon_drunk:

Nah, these just get you kicked out of places...

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Perhaps we need a 6 way double blind placebo controlled study, eh Ben? :lol: :icon_drunk:

We kinda did. The HERMS brew was the placebo.

 

[Fatgodzilla]

The systems war thingy was not about which sytem would make the same beer best. As stated at the beginning, it was about determining efficiency and whether any system was better. The result was HERMs then gravity then BIAB but rthe consensus was the differences between the three wasn't great.

As far as the judging goes, the 3 small samples served as was does not represent a great base to work out the best beer. They were not judged as in a formal competition. The variation in flavours was not great. The temperatures I got my beers in varied greatly.

Personally (as per the Barry Cranston comments) you brew with what gear you have. The brewer makes the beer. The system is the instrument only. As i showed with my beers at Club Night, you can **** up any beer if you do things wrong!

 

[pbrosnan]

oh ho, there's lots of "its not really a victory because...." rationalisation going on - but the rules were set, the bout was fought and a winner was declared. Fair enough, it was a win by 80 votes to 78 which make it pretty damn close - but a win is a win... so nerny ner ner to the losers. Try not to cry out in public where everyone can see - its unmanly.

80 Votes BIAB
78 Votes Gravity
25 Votes HERMS

and 3-1 for the BIAB by the people who actually brewed the beers.

A narrow but clear win. So there!

So they organised a pissing competition. What a highlight. You guys are suckers for a fight.

 

[dgilks]

oh ho, there's lots of "its not really a victory because...." rationalisation going on - but the rules were set, the bout was fought and a winner was declared. Fair enough, it was a win by 80 votes to 78 which make it pretty damn close - but a win is a win... so nerny ner ner to the losers. Try not to cry out in public where everyone can see - its unmanly.

80 Votes BIAB
78 Votes Gravity
25 Votes HERMS

and 3-1 for the BIAB by the people who actually brewed the beers.

A narrow but clear win. So there!

At any rate, I think that Spills was trying not only to brag a bit... but also to congratulate AHB in general. This forum is where BIAB was generated. People and conversations had here, have resulted in the development of a system of brewing that, at the very least, holds its own on a quality of beer produced front - and has proved pretty effective at attracting new people into AG brewing. A very real world positive result, for a virtual community. We might bitch and moan, we might have our flame wars and petty arguments, but at the end of the day - we are capable of doing some pretty good stuff too.

Its not a bad thing for this place to give itself a pat on the back every now and again - this is as good an excuse as any.


Edit - Fair enough, we did gang up on them. But have you ever seen Hammond and I brew together?? Its like a three legged race! If anything we were handicapped....

That's a very narrow plurality, not a win (unless this is a US election). Add up the "traditional" systems and you have a clear win and a fairer representation. I have nothing against BIAB but don't like people claiming a result which isn't.

 

[Fourstar]

That's a very narrow plurality, not a win (unless this is a US election). Add up the "traditional" systems and you have a clear win and a fairer representation.

You a Liberal/nationals voter hey*? Prefer to gang up on the little guy as thats then only way you will win!

*And no, im a gravity brewer not BIAB.

At the end of the day this test was to show that good beer can be made on any system and not about good beer can only be made if you have spent several thousand clams on building your rig.

 

[Snow]

I echo what bconnery said above. I have tasted quite a few BIAB beers and enjoyed a great many of them. I personally think "the brewer maketh the beer" and I believe that was reflected in the results. I have a slight suspicion that the HERMS brew could have been over sparged, but hyperthetically had it not been, what would the result have been? I propose it would have been a fairly even split all three ways, which is a great result for BIAB. Just goes to show that all three methods are equally valid and that BIAB is a viable alternative to the traditional 3 vessel system.... That's the conclusion I came to anyway. Your interpretation may be different.

Perhaps we need a 6 way double blind placebo controlled study, eh Ben? :lol: :icon_drunk:

I'm approaching the opinion that, as the BIAB brew day finished at least an hour ahead of it's nearest rival, given the quality of the beer in question and the reduced equipment needs, BIAB may indeed be a far superior method for brewing standard single-batch, single infusion mash beers. That said, I will reserve judgement until I can try a few more styles of beer in comparison blind tastings.
Cheers - Snow.