System Wars / Anhc 2010

[Bribie G]

BIAB is not a method of producing beer, it's a method of producing fermentable wort and no matter how efficient a BIAB or 3V system can be, it's just a stage in the journey of the grain to the brain and ample opportunity to stuff up before or after the mash. We almost universally use malts provided by a maltster such as BB, and yeasts from professional yeast banks in mass produced brewing equipment bought via the trade, so a lot of it is taken care for us - fortunately. A hundred years ago we would have had little or none of that unless you knew a local maltster. So we probably fixate a bit on the mashing process because that's the one that we can control and play with the most.

Also, Snow, BIAB can be an extremely good system for doing stepped mashes, I've had no problems doing Hochkurz mashes, protein rests, cereal mash additions US-style, mashouts, etc - it simply takes a bit of experience to get the hang of how many minutes of your chosen heat source will raise the mash temp by how many degrees. And a skyhook helps


quick edit: chit malt is partly germinated barley or other grains that can be added to a mash when unmalted grain is in the recipe, because it has started to germinate it's classed in Germany as a malt and thus doesn't violate the Reinheitsgebot. Prolly go great in stouts and porters etc.

 

[yardy]

At the end of the day this test was to show that good beer can be made on any system and not about good beer can only be made if you have spent several thousand clams on building your rig.

good point but you don't have to spend thousands to have a good 3V rig :icon_cheers:

cheers

 

[raven19]

BIAB is not a method of producing beer, it's a method of producing fermentable wort...

Good point there Bribie. Sanitation, Fermentation, temperature control, and yeast health/pitching rates are so much more important imo in relation to the final product.

An interesting read this thread.

(Happy to throw my RIMS into the next system wars!)

 

[jayse]

For what its worth I liked the Gravity/Red of Paul's, I found that to be smoother while the other two were too hard to pick apart at that time for me.
I did guessed that the red one was the gravity at the time, reasoning, I liked how Paul explained how he brewed and possibly thought having the least margin for error, whilst the other two may have more room for error and extracting that extra harsher grain flavour.
That reasoning whether right or wrong turns out I was right. Another part of the reasoning was the Biab and herms had much thinner mashes with herms at 4l and biab at 7l whilst the gravity at 2.5l, I considered this 2.5l litres to be in what is the norm and as such maybe better, also maybe a potential for less attenuation thicker, again its just my reasoning at the time, pull it apart if you like. Don't quote me on exact numbers.


Maybe also there was a ellement of bias involved, most people liked what the black had and would have proberly thought the blue just as good, maybe could not pick them, then when the majority up the front picked the black over the blue (and red) they all choose to go with that. Bias is a real factor as explain by Andrew.......

So if you put that definite bias to black aside which would count for more then a handfull that puts red on top. :super:
Yes I think gravity is best and dispite what real merits the excerise has it came out on top for me.

Don't take my post too seriuosly, maybe like the actual fun ellement of the whole excercise.

 

[Murcluf]

Just a thought to add in the 3 beers didn't come out together so for those who hung on to the beers and tasted them together would of had better appreciation for the first 2 as they would of warmed up a bit. And yes I did taste them at delivery and taste off noting the change in character of the earlier ones and I made my choice against how they tasted at delivery point noting difference was very minor between them but found the first two almost identical.

With the later lecture on bias in mind also the it a BIAB no its a HERMS no it a BIAB confusion and all they other inconstitencies that went in to play if anything the real winner was the beer and the brewers that made them.

In the wisdom of Fox Mulder "The TRUTH is out there....!!!!" because who really cares what system you use, as long as your making good beer and you enjoy drinking it, it don't mean squat in the end really whether it's BIAB, HERM or Gavity.

P.S I picked "The Black one just over the Red and I mean just"

 

[raven19]

Do we expand this with a retrial of various systems as part of Adelaide hosting the Nationals next year?

 

[jbirbeck]

love the concept, love the vid on the website.

I've brewed for a while, the old kitchen method using whatever you can get your hands on, 2 vessel juggle method using tipping and gravity, BIAB, BIAB variations using a bag in an esky and a kettle, 3V gravity and now my RIMS set up with some gravity aspects.

All have their ups, all have their downs but RIMS is best from a safety point of view in my house...and its the easiest way to brew. Do what works, brew good beer, enjoy it.

Now who is doing the next instalment(s) of System Wars and what is involved?

 

[manticle]

Wasn't the point just to see if one or the other made noticeably inferior beer as well as to have a bit of fun and just promote AG brewing no matter what the system?

I'm a gravity fed 3V brewer who's tasted beers made from HERMS, BIAB and bucket o' death produced worts and honestly could not say (and probably don't care enough) which one is better because wort production is only one part of the process. Important, yes but part of a whole. Essentially enzymes are being activated, starches converted and extracted, etc etc.

Argument as to which is best is old, moot and uninteresting unless you approach it in the fun spirit the system wars thing was based on. Imagine beer brewing being about fun?!?

 

[Bribie G]

Avast, ye partigyle wolle always be ye only way to makke fyne beeres, mark mine word - ask ye any ale wyffe

 

[Snow]

Wasn't the point just to see if one or the other made noticeably inferior beer as well as to have a bit of fun and just promote AG brewing no matter what the system?

I'm a gravity fed 3V brewer who's tasted beers made from HERMS, BIAB and bucket o' death produced worts and honestly could not say (and probably don't care enough) which one is better because wort production is only one part of the process. Important, yes but part of a whole. Essentially enzymes are being activated, starches converted and extracted, etc etc.

Argument as to which is best is old, moot and uninteresting unless you approach it in the fun spirit the system wars thing was based on. Imagine beer brewing being about fun?!?

Brewing definitely is fun. I also find comparing different brewing methods fun. For me it's a left brain/right brain thing - I love the creative side, but I also love the scientific side which is why the brew wars experiment appealed to me. It's also fun entering comps - and winning them. So if an experiment shows me that one method brews a better beer than another, then the argument as to which is best is definitely not old, moot and uninteresting to me. Of course I could barely pick a very noticeable difference between any of the beers (I voted black and could easily have voted red for drinkability, but blue I felt matched the style the best), so to that end the experiment wasn't much use to me.

Cheers - Snow.

 

[dgilks]

You a Liberal/nationals voter hey*? Prefer to gang up on the little guy as thats then only way you will win!

*And no, im a gravity brewer not BIAB.

At the end of the day this test was to show that good beer can be made on any system and not about good beer can only be made if you have spent several thousand clams on building your rig.

No, Greens voter. I'd suggest that assuming there is a substantial difference between BIAB and other forms of wort production, that the HERMS would producer a result closer to gravity than to BIAB and if the voting was preferential, that the votes from HERMS would tilt 70 to 90% to gravity. Yes, that is entirely off the top of my head but I still think it's wrong to say that BIAB won when it didn't have a majority of the votes.

 

[mika]

<snip>

...which one is better because wort production is only one part of the process. Important, yes but part of a whole.

<snip>

I think that's one thing that was done really well in the comparison. All beers pitched with the same amount of yeast and all beers fermented in the same coolroom. Same water treatments applied and same kettle finings used. So as much as possible, yeast health and fermenting conditions have been kept constant for this comparison. Hence why everyone's debating the systems.
It was a little dissappointing to find that the BIAB used a different mash temp (1deg higher) as well.
Though I don't think the FG's were disclosed ?

A system wars in Adelaide of No-chill versus plate heat exchanger and counterflow coil chiller would be interesting. It would be hard to compare an immersion chiller to the others, unless a sole 60min bittering addition was used.
Would be awesome if someone had a system large enough to produce a large enough batch that you could split the flow three ways from the outlet and thus achieve all three chilling methods from the one batch.

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

No, Greens voter. I'd suggest that assuming there is a substantial difference between BIAB and other forms of wort production, that the HERMS would producer a result closer to gravity than to BIAB and if the voting was preferential, that the votes from HERMS would tilt 70 to 90% to gravity. Yes, that is entirely off the top of my head but I still think it's wrong to say that BIAB won when it didn't have a majority of the votes.

Then, by your logic, there was not and could not be a winner.

I think the HERMS and BIAB beers tasted closer to each other than either of them and the Gravity beer. So, with BIAB being the major party in a BIAB-HERMS coalition, we still won.

But, I think the BIAB beer tasted closer to the Gravity beer than the HERMS beer did. So, in a BIAB-Gravity coalition, we would still be the major party and still win.

You're giving the rest of us Greens voters a bad reputation with your voting logic! You *were* there, weren't you?

 

[yardy]

whoever took Gabrielle the barmaid home was the real winner :icon_chickcheers:

 

[manticle]

Brewing definitely is fun. I also find comparing different brewing methods fun. For me it's a left brain/right brain thing - I love the creative side, but I also love the scientific side which is why the brew wars experiment appealed to me. It's also fun entering comps - and winning them. So if an experiment shows me that one method brews a better beer than another, then the argument as to which is best is definitely not old, moot and uninteresting to me. Of course I could barely pick a very noticeable difference between any of the beers (I voted black and could easily have voted red for drinkability, but blue I felt matched the style the best), so to that end the experiment wasn't much use to me.

Cheers - Snow.

I agree with the general sentiment expressed - I guess I'm just seeing a bit too much seriousness placed in the results. I don't think (I could be wrong) that they were ever meant to be absolutely definitive or serious and the results are as much a way of proving that BIAB is as much a legitimate means of wort production as anything else.

If you couldn't pick a noticeable difference then I guess that means there probably isn't one which is more telling for BIAB detractors than anyone else. Smart brewers would realise the difference lies with the brewer, environment and fermentation more than it does with wort production.

I think legitimate and sensible debate, testing between different systems etc is entirely valid, fun and interesting. I guess the old/uninteresting/moot thing comes from people becoming too involved in 'your system sucks because I read it must' or 'your system cannot theoretically make good beer despite judging suggesting otherwise'.

The way I read Spill's original post was that all the people who'd never tried BIAB who said that it would, absolutely make astringent, low efficiency thin rubbish' should eat their words. I didn't really think he was trying to lord it up as BIAB is the best, bestest thing and no-one can make good beer any other way. Therefore the pains some people have gone to to suggest the competition wasn't absolutely perfectly run and the results are invalid seems a bit unnecessary.

All it shows me is that the BIAB beers that I've drunk that I thought tasted nice probably did in fact taste nice.

I feel like I'm struggling to make sense but hopefully I am.

 

[DU99]

Guys..you all have to remember its the person and the quality of the products they use and we are all different in some way the way we brew,we all dont have the same thermometer..the whole idea is we are turning out a product that yourself and your friends enjoy..

 

[raven19]

A system wars in Adelaide of No-chill versus plate heat exchanger and counterflow coil chiller would be interesting. It would be hard to compare an immersion chiller to the others, unless a sole 60min bittering addition was used.
Would be awesome if someone had a system large enough to produce a large enough batch that you could split the flow three ways from the outlet and thus achieve all three chilling methods from the one batch.

Hmmm, well I have my big bertha (110L) kettle resting in the shed atm... only one tap outlet though...

I could add a 4 way connector and 3 ball valves though...

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

I think the comparison *with* an immersion chiller would be *more* interesting. Then, the three main varieties (plate chillers just being a variation on a theme, in one sense), or four if you prefer, could be compared side by side and a similar judgement (or lack thereof, if you prefer ) could be made.

BTW: Thanks to whoever thought to make this a separate thread from the proper ANHC one.

 

[Snow]

I agree with the general sentiment expressed - I guess I'm just seeing a bit too much seriousness placed in the results. I don't think (I could be wrong) that they were ever meant to be absolutely definitive or serious and the results are as much a way of proving that BIAB is as much a legitimate means of wort production as anything else.



I feel like I'm struggling to make sense but hopefully I am.

:lol: I'll tell you what - the tastingand judging was anything but serious on the day! Definitely the funniest conference session I've ever attended! I still think they screwed up the labels on the kegs h34r:

Don't worry - you are making perfect sense!

Cheers - Snow

 

[DU99]

Labels on kegs..why not use a luggage tag..attached to hand grip..