Thanks mate. This weekend I'm gonna brew a double batch of my apa and pitch us05 in one then s189 in another and see the differences then. Im a big fan of the 189 and have used it for a couple years, and I mainly brew lagers. But wouldn't mind some ales as well and I'm not really fussed on using a an ale yeast. That way I can reuse the yeast cake and brew a lager
Swiss Lager At 19 Degrees, Is This Possible?
- Thread starter BjornJ
- Start date
Help Support Australia & New Zealand Homebrewing Forum:
Thanks mate. This weekend I'm gonna brew a double batch of my apa and pitch us05 in one then s189 in another and see the differences then. Im a big fan of the 189 and have used it for a couple years, and I mainly brew lagers. But wouldn't mind some ales as well and I'm not really fussed on using a an ale yeast. That way I can reuse the yeast cake and brew a lager
BjornJ
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 15/2/09
- Messages
- 1,067
- Reaction score
- 3
Got the yeast today, woohoo!
Jason got a pack for me as well, now he's saying to "go all in" and pitch at 19, even though this is higher than what I even do ales at.
Hmm, go nice and low at 12 seems to be out of the question, then what's the purpose of this experiment.
16 or 19... hmm..
Leaning towards 19 now, even though it sounds like madness.
But Ross should know what he is doing, so guessing that's where this is heading, eh?
Worst case scenario I'll do another one with the other pack at 15-16 and see if that works better.
Bjorn
Jason got a pack for me as well, now he's saying to "go all in" and pitch at 19, even though this is higher than what I even do ales at.
Hmm, go nice and low at 12 seems to be out of the question, then what's the purpose of this experiment.
16 or 19... hmm..
Leaning towards 19 now, even though it sounds like madness.
But Ross should know what he is doing, so guessing that's where this is heading, eh?
Worst case scenario I'll do another one with the other pack at 15-16 and see if that works better.
Bjorn
Have a number of posts been deleted from this thread from yesterday afternoon ????????? :huh: :huh:
As I posted (which seems to have disappeared: )
I was at Craftbrewer today and sampled five or six beers made on S-23 and S-189 fermented at 19 degrees and all clean as a whistle. Including a Bohemian and a Schwartzbier and an American standard lager sort of Miller / Coors / Bud which didn't taste of much, but what it did taste of didn't include fruit
I'm convinced.
Edit: one factor in the beers at Bacchus turning out so clean is obviously the strict cold crash / lagering regime where the beers get promptly trundled out of the 19 degree room and into the cold room for a specified period.
As I posted (which seems to have disappeared: )
I was at Craftbrewer today and sampled five or six beers made on S-23 and S-189 fermented at 19 degrees and all clean as a whistle. Including a Bohemian and a Schwartzbier and an American standard lager sort of Miller / Coors / Bud which didn't taste of much, but what it did taste of didn't include fruit
I'm convinced.
Edit: one factor in the beers at Bacchus turning out so clean is obviously the strict cold crash / lagering regime where the beers get promptly trundled out of the 19 degree room and into the cold room for a specified period.
thesunsettree
Drink Drank Drunk
- Joined
- 23/6/08
- Messages
- 512
- Reaction score
- 0
Have a number of posts been deleted from this thread from yesterday afternoon ????????? :huh: :huh:
As I posted (which seems to have disappeared: )
I was at Craftbrewer today and sampled five or six beers made on S-23 and S-189 fermented at 19 degrees and all clean as a whistle. Including a Bohemian and a Schwartzbier and an American standard lager sort of Miller / Coors / Bud which didn't taste of much, but what it did taste of didn't include fruit
I'm convinced.
Edit: one factor in the beers at Bacchus turning out so clean is obviously the strict cold crash / lagering regime where the beers get promptly trundled out of the 19 degree room and into the cold room for a specified period.
bribie,
i too have tasted that schwarz, it is sensational. i looked at the recipe on cbrewer website and saw it used a lager yeast, as i brew ales and cant be arsed dropping my ferment fridge down i got somewhat despondent at not having a crack at that recipe. now knowing it was fermented at 19 (pretty much smack on my ferment fridge) its now GAME ON
.cheers
matt
p.s. how frickin good was that schwarz!!!
Nick JD
Blah Blah Blah
- Joined
- 4/11/08
- Messages
- 7,322
- Reaction score
- 456
Is that 19C in the fermenter, or in the air?
Ross - can you give everyone a bit more informatuion on how to go about this? How long is the fermentation at 19C as opposed to 15C or 11C?
What benefits does one hope to gain by fermenting at 19C except from fermentation speed?
Why don't the commercials use similar temperatures with this yeast since it ferments so clean at ale temps?
Why not 23C? (although I suspect that's the fermentation temp in the fermenter anyway).
Do you high temp ferment with any other yeasts, and if so can you let us know the other yeasts where we can ignore the recommended temps and increase ferment speed with no affects?
Cheers.
Ross - can you give everyone a bit more informatuion on how to go about this? How long is the fermentation at 19C as opposed to 15C or 11C?
What benefits does one hope to gain by fermenting at 19C except from fermentation speed?
Why don't the commercials use similar temperatures with this yeast since it ferments so clean at ale temps?
Why not 23C? (although I suspect that's the fermentation temp in the fermenter anyway).
Do you high temp ferment with any other yeasts, and if so can you let us know the other yeasts where we can ignore the recommended temps and increase ferment speed with no affects?
Cheers.
thesunsettree
Drink Drank Drunk
- Joined
- 23/6/08
- Messages
- 512
- Reaction score
- 0
winkle
Teach a man to fish and play golf, and you'll neve
- Joined
- 9/11/06
- Messages
- 7,333
- Reaction score
- 464
bribie,
i too have tasted that schwarz, it is sensational. i looked at the recipe on cbrewer website and saw it used a lager yeast, as i brew ales and cant be arsed dropping my ferment fridge down i got somewhat despondent at not having a crack at that recipe. now knowing it was fermented at 19 (pretty much smack on my ferment fridge) its now GAME ON
cheers
matt
p.s. how frickin good was that schwarz!!!
Its ace, (hmmm, dry yeast at 19 C, **** even I'll have a go at it).
Nick JD
Blah Blah Blah
- Joined
- 4/11/08
- Messages
- 7,322
- Reaction score
- 456
Looks like you only have to use one packet at that temperature too. That's handy. 27L with only 1 packet is my kinda cheap!
Ross
CraftBrewer
- Joined
- 14/1/05
- Messages
- 9,262
- Reaction score
- 373
Nick,
The brewery we took over only has one fermenting room - it's air cooled & set to 19c. With the fans blowing i'd suspect the ferment sticks pretty close to the 19c, but may well rise a little above at the beginning.
the previous owners used to pitch just 15 grams into 50l, (beers still perfectly clean) but we've upped to 25 grams for 50L. All yeast is rehydrated in warm water before pitching.
Once fermented the beer is put in our conditioning cold room set at 1c for 10 days, before filtering & kegging/bottling.
cheers Ross
BjornJ
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 15/2/09
- Messages
- 1,067
- Reaction score
- 3
Yesterday I got the S-189, and after going for a walk with my prettier half set about to pitch, still undecided on what temperature I would land on.
I washed and sanitised, hydrated the single 12 gr pack in 1.2 dl of lukewarm water. Left it for 30 min before stirring and then came back and stirred several times over the next half hour. I've read that hydrating in water is better than sprinkling it in the wort as the yeast then hydrates using wort and "stuff" can get through the cell wall of the yeasts cells before they are fully hydrated that shouldn't be inside the yeast.
Still undecided.. Poured the wort from the cube into the fermenter, splashed as much as I could.
Put the fermenter and the yeast in the fridge for 20 mins to get back to 19 degrees.
What temp to use??! This is crazy, I can't ferment lagers at 3 degrees higher than I do ales! That's madness, madness I tell you!
But if Ross and BribieG both say it's nice and clean, they should know what they're on about..
Can it be like when shooting in a rifle, it has not one but two "sweet spots"?
You aim a 7.62 mm in at 30 m and it will hit exactly there at 200 m as well as the projectile passes first over then under the line of sight.
Or at least that was the theory back when I did my conscription just before the Boer war.
Am I doing it wrong if going lower than 19 and not as low as 12??
To much back and forth, screw this.
Just pitch the damn yeast.
Ended up pitching at 19 degrees before chickening out and setting the fridge to 17 degrees.
Checked 1 hour later and the temp strip on the fermenter says 18-20 and the fridgemate 17.
The sensor of the fridgemate is under a piece of yoga mat for insulation, pressed against the wall of the fermenter held in place by a piece of elastic rope, halfway up. So the temp should be controlled pretty closely to 17 as fermentation starts and the temp rises. It's not in the fermenter but at least pressed against the fermenter outside with insulation on the outside so is not measuring only air temp.
Can't wait to see how this will turn out.
If it goes pear shaped I'll comfort myself with having the address of both Craftbrewer as well as BribieG in case I need to send bottles of foul beer anywhere
Bjorn
I washed and sanitised, hydrated the single 12 gr pack in 1.2 dl of lukewarm water. Left it for 30 min before stirring and then came back and stirred several times over the next half hour. I've read that hydrating in water is better than sprinkling it in the wort as the yeast then hydrates using wort and "stuff" can get through the cell wall of the yeasts cells before they are fully hydrated that shouldn't be inside the yeast.
Still undecided.. Poured the wort from the cube into the fermenter, splashed as much as I could.
Put the fermenter and the yeast in the fridge for 20 mins to get back to 19 degrees.
What temp to use??! This is crazy, I can't ferment lagers at 3 degrees higher than I do ales! That's madness, madness I tell you!
But if Ross and BribieG both say it's nice and clean, they should know what they're on about..
Can it be like when shooting in a rifle, it has not one but two "sweet spots"?
You aim a 7.62 mm in at 30 m and it will hit exactly there at 200 m as well as the projectile passes first over then under the line of sight.
Or at least that was the theory back when I did my conscription just before the Boer war.
Am I doing it wrong if going lower than 19 and not as low as 12??
To much back and forth, screw this.
Just pitch the damn yeast.
Ended up pitching at 19 degrees before chickening out and setting the fridge to 17 degrees.
Checked 1 hour later and the temp strip on the fermenter says 18-20 and the fridgemate 17.
The sensor of the fridgemate is under a piece of yoga mat for insulation, pressed against the wall of the fermenter held in place by a piece of elastic rope, halfway up. So the temp should be controlled pretty closely to 17 as fermentation starts and the temp rises. It's not in the fermenter but at least pressed against the fermenter outside with insulation on the outside so is not measuring only air temp.
Can't wait to see how this will turn out.
If it goes pear shaped I'll comfort myself with having the address of both Craftbrewer as well as BribieG in case I need to send bottles of foul beer anywhere
Bjorn
rendo
WTF
- Joined
- 19/11/08
- Messages
- 656
- Reaction score
- 4
U got it in one!! madness it is
So much so that I have jumped onto Craftbrewer last night and ordered some S-189 and a few other things,.....
cant wait to do this....but I am sure I will be fermenting at 11-12deg.....cant help it....i couldnt bring myself to do 17,18,19 etc...even though I know what has been said etc......MAYBE one day...just maybe I will try it
Am keen to hear your results...or even better, have a swig or two
Rendo
So much so that I have jumped onto Craftbrewer last night and ordered some S-189 and a few other things,.....
cant wait to do this....but I am sure I will be fermenting at 11-12deg.....cant help it....i couldnt bring myself to do 17,18,19 etc...even though I know what has been said etc......MAYBE one day...just maybe I will try it
Am keen to hear your results...or even better, have a swig or two
Rendo
BjornJ
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 15/2/09
- Messages
- 1,067
- Reaction score
- 3
Rendo,
come on buddy!!!
If I've forced myself to try this thing at 17, surely you can't be any worse?
We are breaking new ground here (ignoring the fact that everyone in Brisbane seems to have done so already).
If you want something to ferment at 12 degrees we have "normal" whitelabs stuff for that, let's go with the newfound optimism and go 17.
Or better still, I'll stay with my 17 and you do 19 and we'll have lunch again and compare
1: you've posted on here that you are buying to try out but worried about the high temp
2: if you go low, it will be clean, big deal..
3: If you go high, you will either be able to say this works, or be one of us with 19-degree lagers.
4: but you will regret pitching at 12 and not testing for yourself... every day while it ferments, then when you bottle, then every time you get a bottle out you will hear my Norwegian accent saying "you know you zhould haive, A. but you chickened oout!!"
My argument to myself was that for $12 you get 2 x 12 gr of S-189, let's waste one in the name of (copy)science, hehe.
(he says proudly, hoping no one remembers the fact that he never did ferment it at 19..)
Bjorn
Bjorn
come on buddy!!!
If I've forced myself to try this thing at 17, surely you can't be any worse?
We are breaking new ground here (ignoring the fact that everyone in Brisbane seems to have done so already).
If you want something to ferment at 12 degrees we have "normal" whitelabs stuff for that, let's go with the newfound optimism and go 17.
Or better still, I'll stay with my 17 and you do 19 and we'll have lunch again and compare
1: you've posted on here that you are buying to try out but worried about the high temp
2: if you go low, it will be clean, big deal..
3: If you go high, you will either be able to say this works, or be one of us with 19-degree lagers.
4: but you will regret pitching at 12 and not testing for yourself... every day while it ferments, then when you bottle, then every time you get a bottle out you will hear my Norwegian accent saying "you know you zhould haive, A. but you chickened oout!!"
My argument to myself was that for $12 you get 2 x 12 gr of S-189, let's waste one in the name of (copy)science, hehe.
(he says proudly, hoping no one remembers the fact that he never did ferment it at 19..)
Bjorn
Bjorn
Nick JD
Blah Blah Blah
- Joined
- 4/11/08
- Messages
- 7,322
- Reaction score
- 456
Remember that Ross Cold Conditions for 10 days after the 19C ferment. This might be essential to the process and might eat up the time saved if you don't have the ability or space to chill it just above freezing for ten days.
Something to consider if you have the fridge space. I don't, and will continue to use s189 at 12C and then bottle straight after primary.
If I had a fridge dedicated to CCing I'd do this for sure. Wouldn't be surprised if the conditioning cleans up most of the undesirable flavours from the ale temp ferment.
Something to consider if you have the fridge space. I don't, and will continue to use s189 at 12C and then bottle straight after primary.
If I had a fridge dedicated to CCing I'd do this for sure. Wouldn't be surprised if the conditioning cleans up most of the undesirable flavours from the ale temp ferment.
BjornJ
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 15/2/09
- Messages
- 1,067
- Reaction score
- 3
Well, the beer is bubbling away happily at 17 degrees.
I'm planning to give it 10-14 days before dropping the temp to 0 for another 10-14 days.
Maybe it's time to get that filter fitted with tubing so I can use it?
Absolutely had to have it off ebay then put it in the cupboard for 3 months, so maybe it's time to try it out.
Can't wait to try this one out.
Bjorn
I'm planning to give it 10-14 days before dropping the temp to 0 for another 10-14 days.
Maybe it's time to get that filter fitted with tubing so I can use it?
Absolutely had to have it off ebay then put it in the cupboard for 3 months, so maybe it's time to try it out.
Can't wait to try this one out.
Bjorn
BjornJ
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 15/2/09
- Messages
- 1,067
- Reaction score
- 3
I'm sure you are right if thinking of reaching FG,
but I noticed Ross gave it 10 days at 19 so 14 at 17 should probably give the yeast plenty of time to clean up after itself?
Fermenting at such high temps probably is a good time to give the yeast some extra days to clean up.
This is all speculating of course, and counterproductive to the whole "fast lager" theme, but hey who cares..
Remember Butters used to say about his Milds "10 days from grains to brains" but I have never been able to achieve that.
Not having a kegging setup doesn't help of course.
Right now I am drinking a light beer I bottled 3 weeks ago, trying to recreate the recipe as the laptop it was on is gone.
Very cleverly I took a backup from Beersmith of all my recipes and play recipes only the week before and put it on the desktop but never emailed it off..
This light beer is quite nice actually, 50/50 light munich and pilsner malt, only 60 min bittering .
San Francisco lager yeast 2 weeks at 14 and 2 weeks at 0 degrees.
After only 3 weeks in the bottle it hopefully has some improving to do still, but it is quite clean and pleasant.
30 IBUs may have been a touch much at OG 1.030 but at the same time it leaves something behind where light beers often "just dissapear" of the palate.
If this Swiss Lager Yeast experiment doesn't pay off I will go back to experimenting with the San Francisco Lager yeast.
After this light beer I think this yeast really has potential at making clean lagers at say 14 degrees which is high enough(ish).
(this is without racking or finings, just 2 weeks in primary at 14 and 2 weeks in primary at 0)
so either way I will be making a lager this summer I will enjoy, by the sound of things
Bjorn
but I noticed Ross gave it 10 days at 19 so 14 at 17 should probably give the yeast plenty of time to clean up after itself?
Fermenting at such high temps probably is a good time to give the yeast some extra days to clean up.
This is all speculating of course, and counterproductive to the whole "fast lager" theme, but hey who cares..
Remember Butters used to say about his Milds "10 days from grains to brains" but I have never been able to achieve that.
Not having a kegging setup doesn't help of course.
Right now I am drinking a light beer I bottled 3 weeks ago, trying to recreate the recipe as the laptop it was on is gone.
Very cleverly I took a backup from Beersmith of all my recipes and play recipes only the week before and put it on the desktop but never emailed it off..
This light beer is quite nice actually, 50/50 light munich and pilsner malt, only 60 min bittering .
San Francisco lager yeast 2 weeks at 14 and 2 weeks at 0 degrees.
After only 3 weeks in the bottle it hopefully has some improving to do still, but it is quite clean and pleasant.
30 IBUs may have been a touch much at OG 1.030 but at the same time it leaves something behind where light beers often "just dissapear" of the palate.
If this Swiss Lager Yeast experiment doesn't pay off I will go back to experimenting with the San Francisco Lager yeast.
After this light beer I think this yeast really has potential at making clean lagers at say 14 degrees which is high enough(ish).
(this is without racking or finings, just 2 weeks in primary at 14 and 2 weeks in primary at 0)
so either way I will be making a lager this summer I will enjoy, by the sound of things
Bjorn
samhaldane
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 2/10/09
- Messages
- 145
- Reaction score
- 1
I'm going to try this too. I have the ability to ferment a lager at cool temperatures but it would be nice to crank one out quicker.
I'm aiming to brew a Weyermann Pils & Motueka SMASH on Monday night and hopefully have it on tap in the kegerator on Christmas Day. Cutting it fine I know, but if it still needs some time I'll just let it lager for another week and have it on tap for new years.
I'm aiming to brew a Weyermann Pils & Motueka SMASH on Monday night and hopefully have it on tap in the kegerator on Christmas Day. Cutting it fine I know, but if it still needs some time I'll just let it lager for another week and have it on tap for new years.
samhaldane
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 2/10/09
- Messages
- 145
- Reaction score
- 1
Will do. I should have said in my last post I intend to report back with how it goes.
Looking forward to hearing how yours turns out Bjorn.
I don't actually have a filter, so it will be interesting to see how it matures unfiltered compared to yours which will be filtered. I am using koppafloc for the first time on recommendation and will try and nail my mash ph so hopefully it will clear out OK with some time at 0C.
