Yob
Hop to it
Anybody got reports? I've got a brewday planned for Friday so will be trialling myself.
Super Aroma - Hop Shots
- Thread starter Yob
- Start date
Help Support Australia & New Zealand Homebrewing Forum:
fungrel
Well-Known Member
1.5ml into a 20L batch with a hopstand of super alpha. May have been too hot because I think it drove off the flowery smell. But even after 20min I could still see the oil on top of the hot wort.
Edit: just sampled. Enormous and full hop flavour, the clean grassiness from super alpha is complemented more than overpowered by the extract. It's hard to describe but I feel in this instance it supports my bittering addition and nothing more. Would be interesting to hear what it's like when adding below 50C.
Edit: just sampled. Enormous and full hop flavour, the clean grassiness from super alpha is complemented more than overpowered by the extract. It's hard to describe but I feel in this instance it supports my bittering addition and nothing more. Would be interesting to hear what it's like when adding below 50C.
Yob
Hop to it
Nice to know, cheers
I plan on doing an extra 10l of my batch, the rest will be cube hopped as normal, the 10l will have 1.5ml added at flameout for 5mins then chilled as quickly as I can (big W pot in a tub) and pitched as soon as I can.
I plan on doing an extra 10l of my batch, the rest will be cube hopped as normal, the 10l will have 1.5ml added at flameout for 5mins then chilled as quickly as I can (big W pot in a tub) and pitched as soon as I can.
technobabble66
Meat Popsicle
Why do the 5min stand and not chill immediately?
Yob
Hop to it
Time to infuse
technobabble66
Meat Popsicle
You mean the chemistry to incorporate the hope oils/resins needs temps of 95*c+?
Otherwise I'd be dropping it to below 60*c before adding the hops shot so it's below most of the volatizing points of the oils.
Happy/keen to have this clarified.
I'm asking partly to get your views of those 2 parts of the hops oils chemistry:
I'm torn between getting it below 60*c to prevent losing most of the precious oils in a flash, and keeping it high to encourage whatever magical chemistry might contribute to locking the preciousness into the wort.
I'm currently leaning towards there maybe something in the classic 20mins addition being for flavour (ie:locked in) and the late additions carrying over to impact the aroma (ie: not locked in ... so volatises easily ... so best maximized by dry hopping).
What are your thoughts on this??
It's why I've gone to experimenting with cube hopping this season - to see if the sealed container achieves what that 20mins flavoring addition does while preventing the volatizing of most of the precious oils that normally occurs to achieve that "flavour chemistry".
---------------
I've read lots of basic analysis of the hops chemistry that pretty much boils down to "it's really really complex" and leaves it there. It's like the chemists and the brewers have never been in the same room together. Consequently no one seems to have encouraged the guys doing the science end of things to indicate what might be the more likely factors to optimize specifically flavour or aroma with regards to the timing and conditions of hops additions - ie: what the Brewers/industry are actually interested in.
I kinda think this research must've been done in the last 30 years as the chemistry we're currently using in brewing seems to be decades old. So I'm starting to feel like a conspiracy theorist in that surely the breweries must know the answer to those basic brewing questions but have kept all info private and never released it, unlike what happens in most fields of science where research is more freely and frequently shared.
Rant over.
Thoughts?
Otherwise I'd be dropping it to below 60*c before adding the hops shot so it's below most of the volatizing points of the oils.
Happy/keen to have this clarified.
I'm asking partly to get your views of those 2 parts of the hops oils chemistry:
I'm torn between getting it below 60*c to prevent losing most of the precious oils in a flash, and keeping it high to encourage whatever magical chemistry might contribute to locking the preciousness into the wort.
I'm currently leaning towards there maybe something in the classic 20mins addition being for flavour (ie:locked in) and the late additions carrying over to impact the aroma (ie: not locked in ... so volatises easily ... so best maximized by dry hopping).
What are your thoughts on this??
It's why I've gone to experimenting with cube hopping this season - to see if the sealed container achieves what that 20mins flavoring addition does while preventing the volatizing of most of the precious oils that normally occurs to achieve that "flavour chemistry".
---------------
I've read lots of basic analysis of the hops chemistry that pretty much boils down to "it's really really complex" and leaves it there. It's like the chemists and the brewers have never been in the same room together. Consequently no one seems to have encouraged the guys doing the science end of things to indicate what might be the more likely factors to optimize specifically flavour or aroma with regards to the timing and conditions of hops additions - ie: what the Brewers/industry are actually interested in.
I kinda think this research must've been done in the last 30 years as the chemistry we're currently using in brewing seems to be decades old. So I'm starting to feel like a conspiracy theorist in that surely the breweries must know the answer to those basic brewing questions but have kept all info private and never released it, unlike what happens in most fields of science where research is more freely and frequently shared.
Rant over.
Thoughts?
Yob
Hop to it
Different things happen to oils at different temperatures, it is...
Complex..
The actual reactions change with time/temp.
Without knowing serious chemistry myself, all I can say is what we already know.
Short stand = aroma flavour (minimal bittering)
Medium stand = flavour bittering (smaller aroma)
Long stand = bittering flavour (minimal aroma)
The difference with the hop shots is the alpha oils are largely absent so you don't get that reaction, you are in the aroma/flavour area with time being the weight to one side or the other..
Er.. Does that even remotely answer your ramble?
Complex..
The actual reactions change with time/temp.
Without knowing serious chemistry myself, all I can say is what we already know.
Short stand = aroma flavour (minimal bittering)
Medium stand = flavour bittering (smaller aroma)
Long stand = bittering flavour (minimal aroma)
The difference with the hop shots is the alpha oils are largely absent so you don't get that reaction, you are in the aroma/flavour area with time being the weight to one side or the other..
Er.. Does that even remotely answer your ramble?
technobabble66
Meat Popsicle
Sort of yes, but mainly no.Yob said:
That's the general understanding i'm familiar with and seems to be the extent of most our knowledge of the practical specifics of the chemistry of the oils and resins from the hops. I'm trying to find more detailed/specific knowledge that applies to what goes on to differentiate how the flavours are produced versus how the aromas are produced, and hence what might be done to efficiently optimise each.
It may well be simply too complex and that a whole range of stuff is going on that impacts both at once, etc, so there's no simple answer.
But basically I'm partly trying to determine if that idea i outlined above could be correct: that the chemistry to achieve the greatest flavour impact takes ~20mins boiling to achieve, and the greatest aroma impact is basically more just dissolving the oils into the beer and holding them in suspension - i.e.: dry hopping is best for aroma (& so the 5mins, 0mins/whirlpool additions are less effective).
In which case the most optimised & efficient hops schedule to maximise both flavour and aroma would work out to simply: 1) whatever for bittering (FWH, 60min, 40min, etc); 2) 20mins addition for flavour; 3) dry hop.
Honestly, i'm probably just chasing a rainbow.
Alternatively, i should just do a range of batches varying the hops schedules 1 step at a time, and determine all this empirically. Unfortunately i don't brew enough for that to be done properly
Apologies for dragging your thread on the exciting little Hops Shot OT !! :unsure: B)
... I guess maybe it's a little On Topic, though: it'd suggest you use your shots at 20mins and to dry hop to get the most out of them...
Yob
Hop to it
Can't dry hop, doesn't infuse to cold beer.
technobabble66
Meat Popsicle
Use a little warm water? Or warm wort (after the main fermentation is finished).
Then just infuse into the beer.
Wouldn't that work?
Edit: warm!
Then just infuse into the beer.
Wouldn't that work?
Edit: warm!
Yob
Hop to it
Im of the impression the whole lot would need to be hot to diffuse throughout.
At $3 a 1.5m syringe its pretty cheap to experiment with, a few jugs of boiling water and run the trials.
Im just gonna jump in the deep end off the end of a brewday though, as you're aware, Ive not a great deal of free time ATM, and in fact, Ive got significantly less than I thought Id have to mess about with.. none-the-less.. Ive got a spare 10lt keg gagging to be filled with a hop hunter (esque) IPA to showcase
h34r:
At $3 a 1.5m syringe its pretty cheap to experiment with, a few jugs of boiling water and run the trials.
Im just gonna jump in the deep end off the end of a brewday though, as you're aware, Ive not a great deal of free time ATM, and in fact, Ive got significantly less than I thought Id have to mess about with.. none-the-less.. Ive got a spare 10lt keg gagging to be filled with a hop hunter (esque) IPA to showcase
h34r:
technobabble66
Meat Popsicle
I'd guess the beta acids (resin) won't diffuse well while cold, but the oils for the flavour & aroma should generally dissolve well, as the alcohol will act as an effective solvent - at least at room temp, since that's basically what dry hopping is.
No free time?!? I'm impressed you've got a hand free to type :lol:
Surely it's about time you organized another BB!
V keen to hear how your keg goes!
No free time?!? I'm impressed you've got a hand free to type :lol:
Surely it's about time you organized another BB!
V keen to hear how your keg goes!
Yob
Hop to it
welcome to pop over for a sample when it's done 
technobabble66
Meat Popsicle
Damn straight!!
I'm keen to grab a few of those shots off u, so that'd be a great excuse :lol:
I'm keen to grab a few of those shots off u, so that'd be a great excuse :lol:
Yob
Hop to it
like a try before you buy kinda thing? :lol:
technobabble66
Meat Popsicle
Exactly!
I was gonna buy some anyway, but I intended to swing by, catch up briefly, and save a few pennies on postage. Only problem being I'm trying to churn through my stores of hops before buying more so I'm struggling to justify getting anything else. FWP!
So the temptation of having a sample and chat is good enough for me !
I was gonna buy some anyway, but I intended to swing by, catch up briefly, and save a few pennies on postage. Only problem being I'm trying to churn through my stores of hops before buying more so I'm struggling to justify getting anything else. FWP!
So the temptation of having a sample and chat is good enough for me !
fungrel
Well-Known Member
Another brew day this weekend (again yay) so I'll try directly after 25min whirlpool. 2ml addition when temp should be around 80c and straight away start running wort through CFC. Oil should be in wort only for around 10min this time.
Will report back.
Will report back.
Yob
Hop to it
Ive got a little batch fermenting right now, 10-15l and put in 1.5ml at about 75'c and chilled reasonably quickly.. will see in a week where this goes..
only bittering hops and the super aroma so should be able to get a clean feel of it.
only bittering hops and the super aroma so should be able to get a clean feel of it.
fungrel
Well-Known Member
Okay, time for an update.
1.5ml in to whirlpool, for around 15-20min, then chilled with CFC.
Kegged Saturday, dry hopped with Chinook.
I know Chinook well... which is why I chose to use the hop extract... and it's not a Chinook aroma I'm getting. It's most definitely floral, almost a perfume scent from the beer. Very surprising! If i were to hazard a guess I would say it is a mix of different hop varieties. 100g dry hop was no match for the extract. All i got from the dry hop was flavour and a slight trace of pine. Only slight!
I am utterly amazed at the amount of aroma coming from the extract. Considering It showed no traces from the initial addition in the brew kettle up until carbing. If i were to use it again, at this time i would use a floral hop like Cascade to really give it a punch.
1.5ml in to whirlpool, for around 15-20min, then chilled with CFC.
Kegged Saturday, dry hopped with Chinook.
I know Chinook well... which is why I chose to use the hop extract... and it's not a Chinook aroma I'm getting. It's most definitely floral, almost a perfume scent from the beer. Very surprising! If i were to hazard a guess I would say it is a mix of different hop varieties. 100g dry hop was no match for the extract. All i got from the dry hop was flavour and a slight trace of pine. Only slight!
I am utterly amazed at the amount of aroma coming from the extract. Considering It showed no traces from the initial addition in the brew kettle up until carbing. If i were to use it again, at this time i would use a floral hop like Cascade to really give it a punch.
