Sub for POR in a Coopers Ale

[Tilt]

I regularly brew a Coopers Sparkling based on Tony Wheeler's BYO article recipe but living over the ditch I don't have a ready supply of decent Pride of Ringwood.
I'm looking for ideas on a good substitute that doesn't stray too far from the original POR flavour.

After a search I see a few others have tried variations on POR (http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/21143-recipedb-coopers-pale-ale-clone/page-9)with some success.
While I have a good bank of Coopers yeast grown up from bottle dregs and I'm happy with the grist I use I'm now looking to try and recreate something of the herbaceaous, peppery, woody, and 'ironlike' flavour I get from fresh POR.

My first thoughts are to use a combo of Northern Brewer and NZ cascade.
Are there any subs or combos others have tried ?

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Its kinds like asking what can you sub SAAZ with...

You may heave to see what you can buy locally in terms of varieties and choose something

 

[Batz]

Horizon would work, in fact IMO it works better. It's what I use in my Aussie brews now.

 

[Bribie G]

Cluster would also be in the same ballpark. Lion still use a bit of it in their Aussies.

 

[Beersuit]

Sorry Bribie but Bintani tell me cluster is no longer being grown in Australia commercially so I don't know how lion could still be using it.

Back on topic I would just go northern brewer minus the cascade leave it for something worthy.

 

[timmi9191]

There's always cigarette butts..

Sorry but I think POR belongs in toilet water. Im eternally scared by the hangovers caused by consuming in it CUB products :blink:


back on topic - super pride

 

[Bribie G]

Sorry Bribie but Bintani tell me cluster is no longer being grown in Australia commercially so I don't know how lion could still be using it.

Back on topic I would just go northern brewer minus the cascade leave it for something worthy.

not so

XXXX heavy is similar, no doubt more Golden Cluster used in that.

 

[technobabble66]

I'd agree with The Ducati Kid, in my limited experience, POR is fairly unique.
I like it, though obviously many don't.
It's an interesting type of sharp-but-good, solid bitterness, with a certain odd fruitiness to it. A great hop, imho.

I've used Horizon also - great bitterer & flavour hops, but i'd say it's still fairly different, depending on how close you want it to be. Could definitely use it instead, but it'll be fairly different.

I'd suggest to just try making a different beer - get some Citra and make an APA instead! You could essentially do the exact same recipe, and dry hop with 20g after its finished fermenting. Or Simcoe, Or Mosaic, or Horizon, etc, etc. Could be a good comparison for you, as to what POR brings to the table.

2c

 

[Bribie G]

Having looked into it further I see from the Craftbrewer site that Cluster isn't indeed being grown commercially here any more.
I've used the US version in recipes from Bronzed Brews and they are certainly very Aussie in character.

 

[Tilt]

Thanks all - a healthy range of opinions - what I'd hope for around these parts.
I'm not looking for a direct and exact POR substitute, more a variation on the CSA theme which is distinctly different to a late hopped PA.
Its definitely that rough, almost grating bitterness to balance a plain grist and lightly fruit yeast esters that I'm aiming for.
I'll look into the Cluster and Horizon options.... and having flicked through the NZ Hops site I'm having thoughts about Southern Cross, Pacific Gem or Green Bullet as other contenders.
Looks like I'm going to have to do some field trials!

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Sorry but I think POR belongs in toilet water. Im eternally scared by the hangovers caused by consuming in it CUB products :blink:

CUB haven't used Pride in mainstream beer since the 80's. That's a long hangover.

 

[timmi9191]

CUB haven't used Pride in mainstream beer since the 80's. That's a long hangover.

Yep!!!!!

GRRRRRR Fosters lager... And I believe it is still used in Fosters, Melbourne and Crown

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Coopers still use POR, and I dont find to many who wont drink it..( except VB drinkers )

Something stolen from the internet


Pride of Ringwood
Australian Bitter Hop
CULTIVAR NUMBER 115-53-001

ABOUT PRIDE OF RINGWOOD Pride of Ringwood is primarily a bittering variety. She gives a distinctly Australian flavour to beer, imparting a resinous character with some fruit-like tones in the mix. As a late-ripening variety, Pride of Ringwood is predominately grown in Tasmania where the longer season allows her to fully mature before harvest. She is often found in pale ales and lagers from breweries around Australia. BREW TIPS Pride of Ringwood is used predominantly for early kettle (bittering) additions. HOP STORY Pride of Ringwood heralds from the eastern suburbs of Melbourne where she was bred by Carlton and United Breweries in 1953 at their Ringwood Research Station, born of the daughter of Pride of Kent (12-50-5, via open pollination at the East Malling research station, UK). She was an instant celebrity when unveiled in the 1960s, she could boast the title of highest alpha acid containing hop in the world. Whilst many hop varieties have since been released containing much higher levels of alpha acid, this variety has withstood the test of time and to this day is known around the world as being synonymous with Foster’s Lager.

ANALYTICAL DATA

Alpha acids (%) 8.6 - 10.5
Beta acids (%) 4.4 - 7.0
Alpha/Beta Ratio 1.3 - 1.9
Cohumulone (% of alpha acid) 26 - 34
Total Oils (ml/100g) 1.6 - 1.8
Oil Concentration (microlitres of oil/g alpha) 162 - 186
Myrcene (% of whole oil) 24 - 41
Caryophyllene (% of whole oil) 9 - 14
Farnesene (% of whole oil) 0 - 1
Humulene (% of whole oil) 2 - 4
Selinene (% of whole oil) 19 - 30
Humulene/Caryophyllene ratio 0.2 – 0.3

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

And some other stolen text from the internet


Pride of Ringwood Hop Stats
Here’s the general stats on Pride of Ringwood, if you just want to get down to it and brew:

• Alpha acids: 7-10.5%
• Aromas and flavours: woods such as cedar and oak, herbs, spice, and some fruit
• Substitutions: Galena, Cluster
• Common beer styles: Australian ales and lagers
• Uses: bittering

Flavours in Pride of Ringwood Hops
Pride of Ringwood is primarily a bittering hop due to its high alpha acid range but, as mentioned, this hop was produced so widely in Australia it’s been used across the board. Because of that, it’s found its way to be a dominant flavour that can be found in older, mass produced Australian beers.
It’s quite a woody hop giving off characteristics of cedar and oak. This can create a very refreshing element to lighter styles of beer or give some class and warmth to heavier styles and dark beers. If the hops aren’t fresh though or the beer gets stale, the brewer risks these wonderful wood tones turning more to cardboard than the wonderful wood that this hop should be showcasing.
Being bread from Pride of Kent, Pride of Ringwood shows some generally English elements with good spice and a rounder herbal taste and aroma.
So while this hop gets a reputation for being overused, there’s something classy about oak, cedar, and some spice and herbs. It feels like a fancy library. Use this hop properly and that’s what you get.

 

[timmi9191]

Grown on the banks of the mullum mullum river apparantly...

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Yep!!!!!

I believe it is still used in Fosters, Melbourne and Crown

Believe anything you want mate.

As stated, it hasn't been used in any of them since the 80's.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

there’s something classy

Agreed, I really like POR. I was told the other day that it's been pulled from Rostrevor, no production from 2017 on.

The source was pretty reliable (brewer in the north east with a good relationship with HPA) but I still think "Tell me it ain't so".

 

[timmi9191]

Believe anything you want mate.

As stated, it hasn't been used in any of them since the 80's.

Big call..

Their own marketing states they still use it. Whilst I dont believe everything I read, in this age of litigation it would be extraordinary foolish for such a corporation to publicly make such claim if its so demonstrably false.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

To be fair there is a limited sense in which this could have been true: back then Pride was the dominant variety in Australian hop gardens so the supercritical CO2 extract which is the only hop product used in these beers would have been at least partially derived from it.

Two problems with this:

Firstly, the acreage planted to Pride has been in decline for 30 years, partially because CUB went to using exclusively extract* in the major products, thereby taking out something like half the hop demand in Australia. I believe this happened in the early 80's but I wasn't in the industry until 1987 so if someone has better data please chime in.

As stated above I am reliably informed the commercial acreage of Pride is now zero.

Secondly, the hop variety used in the supercritical extract has **** all influence on the outcome. It's just IAA, no hop flavour to speak of.





* extract is about three times as efficient as kettle hopping, the economic advantage is obvious.

 

[timmi9191]

Provide the conclusive evidence its not - we can start a class action