Style Of The Week 11/10/06 - Saison

[mje1980]

Maris otter has no chance of covering up saison yeast character. Odd though

 

[anthonyUK]

How low are we talking, seeing as though MJ recommend keeping it between 24-30°C?
I made a hybrid/faux saison with MO instead of pilsner and used the M27, started at 25°C and let it free rise to ~29-30°C. It is weird, I didn't get even a slight hint of what I would call Belgian/saison yeast flavour (spiciness/pepperiness or phenols). Even 3 months down the track now and it hasn't changed. I know the MO is partly to blame for covering some of the yeast flavour, but it still isn't what I expected

I ferment mine as any other ale strain. Start at 18°c and let it rise after 3-4 days. It never gets higher than 24-25°c though but it still fully attenuates.
I use MO pretty much exclusively as a base malt and I can't say it has masked any yeast flavours.
I do mash pretty high though at 68-69°c to maintain body and stop it attenuating down into low single figures which may not be a true Saison but this is how I prefer it.

I have one corny ready now that I made with about a pint of DIY Candi which had some figs in it for around 6 months.
The missus was bugging me to get rid of them as she needed the mason jar so I stuck the Candi syrup in this batch and it comes through really well.

It you taste anything made with M27 side-by-side with a regular ale strain the characteristics are unmistakeable.

 

[goatchop41]

Maris otter has no chance of covering up saison yeast character. Odd though

I ferment mine as any other ale strain. Start at 18°c and let it rise after 3-4 days. It never gets higher than 24-25°c though but it still fully attenuates.
I use MO pretty much exclusively as a base malt and I can't say it has masked any yeast flavours.
I do mash pretty high though at 68-69°c to maintain body and stop it attenuating down into low single figures which may not be a true Saison but this is how I prefer it.

I have one corny ready now that I made with about a pint of DIY Candi which had some figs in it for around 6 months.
The missus was bugging me to get rid of them as she needed the mason jar so I stuck the Candi syrup in this batch and it comes through really well.

It you taste anything made with M27 side-by-side with a regular ale strain the characteristics are unmistakeable.

Yeah, I didn't think that the MO should affect it significantly. But it's just got a realllllllly weird and slightly unpleasant bready flavour to it - I attributed it to the MO, because I used the same batch of grain in a pale ale with M44 yeast, with the same weird flavour standing out (although that one aged out after ~3 months and now tastes fantastic).
If you handed it to me blind and asked me to taste it, I would never guess that it was a saison, or even anything remotely Belgian.

:icon_offtopic: I've actually recently pitched some M27 into an apple cider and it is amazing even after 1.5 weeks in the fermenter. Nice and spicy - I can recognise only a very slight hint of that flavour in the saison, it is overwhelmed by the unidentified off flavour.

 

[mje1980]

Maybe try belle saison?

 

[goatchop41]

Maybe try belle saison?

That's the plan, have got a packet for my next batch. Going to keep it very traditional - mostly pils with a touch of wheat, styrians all the way for hopping. Just need to wait a month or two for it to warm up a bit outside, as I don't have a heating belt/pad

 

[peekaboo_jones]

Sounds good goatchop.
This weekend I'm bottling my first makeshift Saison:
11L batch size.
1/2 can Coopers Pale Ale
600g dry Briess Bavarian wheat dry malt
150g Crystal Wheat
100g Carapils
10g Amarillo @ 10 mins
10g Chinook @ 10 mins
Dry hop:
6g Chinook 3 days prior to bottling
6g Amarillo 3 days prior to bottling

OG 1038
Danstar Belle Saison yeast rehydrated.
Pitched at 20 deg C, raised by 1.5 every day until 26 deg C and held.
It's now sitting at 1004, will take another hydro tomorrow.
Plan to bulk prime at about 9 or 9.5g/L into champagne bottles

 

[mje1980]

Champagne bottles are a great idea for saison. I won't bottle saison in anything else

 

[peekaboo_jones]

Wife A was in a foul mood today and I didn't have time to prepare for first attempt at bulk priming...
So I just primed with 2x Coopers carb drops, bottled into champagne bottles still and topped up to a nice level with a small funnel after regular bottler stick thingy mjig. Back into brew fridge at 21 deg C.
Tasted nice straight out of the fermenter! Not sour at all

 

[mofox1]

Wife A was in a foul mood today and I didn't have time to prepare for first attempt at bulk priming...

Meanwhile wife B was all honey and kisses and you still would have had to use the carb drops....

 

[peekaboo_jones]

Meanwhile wife B was all honey and kisses and you still would have had to use the carb drops....

Hehe
And the carb drops worked well for the effort ;-)
Decided to put one in the Glen Ridge last night to chill for a sneaky taste tonight.
Overall: pleasant and very drinkable!
My first Saison along with the Danstar Belle Saison yeast. It's not overly sour, a little bit tart but nice. Quite malty due to the ingredients: pale ale can and dry wheat malt. Next time I'll use a pilsner kit can instead, some wheat dry malt a bit of dextrose to make it dryer and crisper for an excellent summer quaffer.
Could also do with more dry hop QTY's (can't actually smell or taste any)

 

[A3k]

Hi guys,
i'm after a bit of advice after brewing a saison with probably not enough research before making the recipe. I have the wort in cubes while the yeast is building on a stir plate, and i'm considering making some changes as i put it in the fermenter.

i made my recipe based on Raison De Saison i think. But am no concerned that it's not bitter enough, AND too high an OG.

Questions:
a) Should i water down a bit. OG of 1.060 seems a bit higher than what i'm looking at on the web. if the yeast gets down to 1.005, it'll be 7.2%.
b) The bitterness is 18IBU (unadjusted for nochill) . should i consider boiling some of the wort and add extra hops to get it to 24IBU
c) should i consider boiling some of the wort and steep extra hops for flavour/aroma?
d) Do i just leave it alone.

as i'm writing this, i'm thinking d) is the best idea, but curious as to what your thoughts are australia


The following was mashed at 65.
Recipe Specifications

--------------------------
Boil Size: 62.00 l
Post Boil Volume: 52.00 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 46.00 l   
Bottling Volume: 43.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.060 SG
Estimated Color: 10.3 EBC
Estimated IBU: 17.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 81.5 %

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
10.00 kg              Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (3.9 EBC)            Grain         1        83.0 %        
1.10 kg               Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC)          Grain         2        9.1 %         
0.80 kg               White Wheat Malt (4.7 EBC)               Grain         3        6.6 %         
0.15 kg               Caramunich I (Weyermann) (100.5 EBC)     Grain         4        1.2 %         
70.00 g               Hallertauer [4.40 %] - Boil 60.0 min     Hop           5        15.8 IBUs     
30.00 g               Hallertauer [4.40 %] - Steep/Whirlpool   Hop           6        1.2 IBUs      
0.7 pkg               Belgian Saison (Wyeast Labs #3724) [124. Yeast         7        -

 

[Mickcr250]

Looks fine to me mate, bitterness should be pretty spot on if you no chilled and I like my saisons strong. Also wouldn't worry to much about flavour/aroma hops as this style is all about the yeast.

 

[mje1980]

Don't add extra hops. Maybe dry hops. If using 3724, be prepared for a long ferment, and use a heat belt, as this yeast loves it hot, I mean hot, 30c hot. It'll take a while to get to fg, which should be at least 1.005. Be patient, and get ready for a good 4+ week ferment,, but it's an awesome yeast.

 

[mje1980]

I'm just sipping on a saison with 3724 that's about a year old. Unreal, dry and light bodied at 6% haha

 

[mofox1]

Don't add extra hops. Maybe dry hops. If using 3724, be prepared for a long ferment, and use a heat belt, as this yeast loves it hot, I mean hot, 30c hot. It'll take a while to get to fg, which should be at least 1.005. Be patient, and get ready for a good 4+ week ferment,, but it's an awesome yeast.

Eight weeks for mine to go from 1.058 to 1.004, that was at a modest 28* as the max temp from about the second week.

Don't be afraid to push it to low thirties.. you'll get more funk coming through.

 

[A3k]

Thanks guys, i'll leave it as is.

i've heard a lot about this yeast, but decided to take it on none the less.
I ferment in a fridge with heat pad. I have a big starter going, and was planning on pitching at 24, raising 1 degree per day up to 30.

Cheers,
Al

 

[A3k]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Hi guys,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]what OG do people seem to get with 3724. I found lots of varying info on this. Mine was at 1.010 for a week from 1.060 (83%) which seemed good at the time so I kegged it, but now it does seem a bit too sweet for the first few mouthfuls.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]It’s really only the first 3 mouthfuls that seem too sweet, then it is great. It seems to balanced a little over the past few days, but that’s probably just me getting use to it [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]J[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Batch Size (fermenter): 46.00 l[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Estimated OG: 1.060 SG[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Estimated Color: 10.3 EBC[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Estimated IBU: 22.0 IBUs[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Mash Temp: 65C[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Amt Name [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]10.00 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (3.9 EBC) 83.0 % [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]1.10 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) 9.1 % [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]0.80 kg White Wheat Malt (4.7 EBC) 6.6 % [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]0.15 kg Caramunich I (Weyermann) (100.5 EBC) 1.2 % [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]70.00 g Hallertauer [4.40 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 20.3 IBUs [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]30.00 g Hallertauer [4.40 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 1.7 IBUs [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] Belgian Saison (Wyeast Labs #3724) [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Cheers,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Al [/SIZE]

 

[goatchop41]

Al, what temp have you pushing it to late in fermentation? 83% AA is right around Wyeast's specs, but a lot of people ind these saison yeasts eating away to up to 90% AA! If I wasn't kegging, I would be very suspicious of a FG for a saison that wasn't 1.008 or lower. Might have needed to bump it higher to really finish off (I've read of brewers pushing it to 30oC to finish off the last few points).
The other culprit might be your mash temp. I'm with the majority on this one regarding liking my saisons very dry, so I would mash long and low, at ~60-62oC for 90 mins.

Damn, now I want one. Might have to brew one this weekend :icon_drool2:

 

[A3k]

[SIZE=11pt]Yeah I was expecting it to be dryer. I definitely would’ve left it longer if not kegging. I’m considering rasing the temp of the keg and seeing if it drops. I’m not too worried as it is really nice, but thinking about next time. Maybe lower mash next time as you suggested.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]As for temp, I started at 22 then raised temp to 34 by the end. Below are my notes, but I missed a couple of temperature raises toward the end. It spent the last week or so at 34.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Added yeast to 15L on 21/8/15 with wort at 22C - Measured OG = 1.060.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]22nd raised to 23C in morning then 24 at night[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]24th increased temp to 25C[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]25th morning increased temp to 26. Gravity = 1.042[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]25th night. increased to 27. sg at 1.036/8[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]26th arvo increased to 28[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]27th night increased to 29. SG at 1.032. happy it's going down still[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]2/9 SG at 1.024 (added an extra degree every week or so until 32C)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]20/9 at 1.010 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]19/3 at 1.010 - chilled to 2C[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]cheers[/SIZE]

 

[goatchop41]

That's a long, slow rise! You certainly have more patience than I!
I haven't done it myself, but have read plenty of others keeping the temp at 22-24 C for the first 3 days, then either just letting it free-rise to ~30 C or increasing by 1-2 C per day until at 30 C and leaving it there for a few days to finish. So about 2 weeks total in the FV before kegging. If I were bottling, I would definitely have bumped up to 32-34 like you to make 100% sure that it was done.
Really, it sounds like you had the temp where it needed to be for a long time. So I'd be looking at the mid-range mash temp that you used as the culprit.

Any plans to brew another in the future? I haven't seen a saison recipe like yours before. Pretty much every single one that I've seen is just pils and wheat malts (anywhere from 50:50 to 80:20 in favour of pils). Is the munich and/or caramunich distinctly noticeable in it?

Temps around here are already in the low 30s, so I'm planning a 50:50 with Belle Saison ASAP, and then also looking at a dark saison too!