Sterilizing

[Courtney Scott]

If you allow the stuff to dry completely before putting wort or beer in it, the chlorine probably disappears anyway. That said, I prefer not using chlorine based things unless I absolutely have to.

Yeah sounds fair.... when i use all the tablets I have I'll give the Starsan a go but I really can't taste anything at the moment and I do usually leave it to dry a bit before I fill the keg or fermenter. Usually you can smell the Chlorine in our tap water but when i have finished sanitizing my gear you can't really smell any chlorine so probably not as bad as if I used tap water to wash it out.

Does have some amount of Chlorine by the looks.

 

[5teve]

Starsan, with maybe a boiling/boiled water rinse depending how time poor I am, is how I roll - not that I really bottle much anymore. Many years ago before I bought my first seemingly never-ending bottomless bottle of Starsan, I used to just do the bleach and multiple rinse thing but was a lot more effort to get rid of the chlorine wiff, and I don't rate it that much cheaper for bottling given the extra effort involved, and how much shorter even unmixed bleach shelf life is than starsan anyway. Plus chlorine seems well overkill for bottles given finished beer is more robust than fresh sugary virginal wort.

However I still have a place for NaOCl occasionally. A few years ago I had an issue with over attentuation in a few successive batches that I put down to a wild yeast infection of my plastic fermenter that Starsan didn't seem to shake so I went full thermonuclear on it and have now made it a more or less yearly treatment so as to rotate/mix up sanitisation and give me the warm and fuzzies.

So maybe once a year I get medieval and first hyperchlorinate my fermenter with bleach to disinfect, then rinse a few times with boiling water and hit it with Campden tablets to help dechlorinate the fermenter and get rid of any remaining chlorine odour (by my thinking at least) and give an additional sanitising, then store it away dry. Then before I use it again next give it the usual Starsan-ification™ like usual. Some more learned people may validly say it's overkill / pointless / other justifiable negative reasons, I say has been working for me with nill infections since and nill perceived additional chlorophenols.

 

[altone]

Starsan, with maybe a boiling/boiled water rinse depending how time poor I am, is how I roll - not that I really bottle much anymore.
...
So maybe once a year I get medieval and first hyperchlorinate my fermenter with bleach to disinfect, then rinse a few times with boiling water and hit it with Campden tablets to help dechlorinate the fermenter and get rid of any remaining chlorine odour (by my thinking at least) and give an additional sanitising, then store it away dry. Then before I use it again next give it the usual Starsan-ification™ like usual. Some more learned people may validly say it's overkill / pointless / other justifiable negative reasons, I say has been working for me with nill infections since and nill perceived additional chlorophenols.

I actually very much like the idea.
A massive spring clean of all your gear including pulling all the stuff apart you (I) don't usually bother with, use the strongest appropriate cleaning solution
and then Chlorinate the hell out of it!

Last time I deep cleaned the laundry (where yeast propagation happens for me) my wife couldn't understand why I was spraying bleach on the ceiling and walls.
So I'll take your possibly overkill route and use it.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I think it much safer to use what the breweries use (also the dairy industry) PAA.
From what I have read in EU removing of the cleaning disinfection agents is mandatory except if the substance is harmless which PAA is, dodecylbenzine sulphonic acid is not permitted to be commercially used in food analogs or additives.DIN 10516
In saying that I do use it as a spray for detecting any leaks in my co2 collections

 

[Rocker1986]

Where does one get this paa?

Sent from my Agora 4G+ using Aussie Home Brewer mobile app

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Have a look for per acetic acid or proxitane sanitiser close to where you are.

 

[MHB]

A quick google for the MSDS is often a fast way to learn what is in stuff
Milton tablets MSDS (snip)

Shure it makes Chlorine as the active ingredient, but it leaves a lot of other stuff behind.
Never going to be my go to steriliser.
Mark

 

[altone]

Snippet from the PAA MSDS

2.1 Classification of the substance or mixture Work Health and Safety Regulation 2011 - Flammable liquids , Category 4 H227: Combustible liquid. - Oxidizing liquids , Category 2 H272: May intensify fire; oxidiser. - Corrosive to metals , Category 1 H290: May be corrosive to metals. - Acute toxicity , Category 4 H302: Harmful if swallowed. - Acute toxicity , Category 4 H332: Harmful if inhaled. - Acute toxicity , Category 4 H312: Harmful in contact with skin. - Skin corrosion , Category 1A H314: Causes severe skin burns and eye damage. - Serious eye damage , Category 1 H318: Causes serious eye damage. - Specific target organ toxicity - single exposure, Category 3 H335: May cause respiratory irritation. (Respiratory system),

I'm sure it does a good job, but looks like nasty stuff.
I assume you only store small quantities and are a careful fellow WEAL.

Industrial users have big safe cleaning tanks they push this stuff in and out of without human intervention, but homebrewers can be a bit too hands on sometimes.
Anyway I'm just saying be careful with this stuff and I might just stick to Starsan/Stellarsan as my main sterilizer.

 

[Black Devil Dog]

I use Starsan and always rinse fermenters and kegs out with boiling hot water before filling them. I've never really followed the 'don't fear the foam' mantra that has been popular among brewers for quite some time.

The only exceptions to this rule are the few 500ml swing tops per batch that I bottle, they get the 'no-rinse' treatment as do transfer hoses, taps etc.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Snippet from the PAA MSDS

2.1 Classification of the substance or mixture Work Health and Safety Regulation 2011 - Flammable liquids , Category 4 H227: Combustible liquid. - Oxidizing liquids , Category 2 H272: May intensify fire; oxidiser. - Corrosive to metals , Category 1 H290: May be corrosive to metals. - Acute toxicity , Category 4 H302: Harmful if swallowed. - Acute toxicity , Category 4 H332: Harmful if inhaled. - Acute toxicity , Category 4 H312: Harmful in contact with skin. - Skin corrosion , Category 1A H314: Causes severe skin burns and eye damage. - Serious eye damage , Category 1 H318: Causes serious eye damage. - Specific target organ toxicity - single exposure, Category 3 H335: May cause respiratory irritation. (Respiratory system),

I'm sure it does a good job, but looks like nasty stuff.
I assume you only store small quantities and are a careful fellow WEAL.

Industrial users have big safe cleaning tanks they push this stuff in and out of without human intervention, but homebrewers can be a bit too hands on sometimes.
Anyway I'm just saying be careful with this stuff and I might just stick to Starsan/Stellarsan as my main sterilizer.

Once it is added to water at dosage rate it isn't so bad, yes you would still need to wear safety glasses and it does burn your hands but after an hour it is gone. Can't buy it in to big a quantity as it has to be kept in a fridge.
PTSAN5
http://www.jaegaraustralia.com.au/product_data/TechDataPDF/Jaegar_Product Brochure_spreads.pdf

 

[Courtney Scott]

A quick google for the MSDS is often a fast way to learn what is in stuff
Milton tablets MSDS (snip)
View attachment 113607
Shure it makes Chlorine as the active ingredient, but it leaves a lot of other stuff behind.
Never going to be my go to steriliser.
Mark

Sorry mate I haven't read a lot of MSDS's before what sort of stuff is it leaving behind? Would have thought it can't be too harmful given the main use is Baby bottles, but I'd be interested to know.
Regards,
Norto.

 

[mongey]

I star san no rinse. I do santize bottles and put on my bottle tree first . that way they have about 15 min to drain excess while I get other stuff ready to bottle. and I def shake the Bejesus out of the fermenter to get rid of the excess foam when putting on a beer.

I have thought about rinsing but arnt you just getting rid of the sanitation ? whats the point of doing it in first place

 

[MHB]

Well apart from the two Carbonates (something I rarely add to beer), there is Adipic Acid, I have no idea what it is or what it is or does, same for dichloroisocyanurate (tho the name gives a few clues).
What I do know is that Chlorine is a pretty poor steriliser for brewing equipment (including bleach). Two main reasons I avoid Chlorine 1/ to avoid the formation of Chlorophenols 2/ most of my equipment is Stainless, Chlorine at any concentration will degrade stainless over time.
The other thing I do is called the "Law of unintended consequences" often talked about in the soggy sciences, but applies in the real world to.
Just to sight one possible example, low levels of Chlorine in town water are good for supressing disease carrying organisms, its safe for people to drink - so it chlorinated water must be OK for brewing, right?
Now apply the same thinking to a bunch of random chemicals, their breakdown products, the chemicals that may form when they react with wort constituents - really there is no practical way to know what will form, whether it will be good or bad, safe or dangerous....
If I don't know what something is going to do when added to a brew, I don't add it!

 

[pist]

Sodium percarbonate is great at removing protein based soiling and also tannin (which is why it's so great at removing red wine from clothing like the nappy san adds on TV). With that said sodium percarbonate is no good at:
1. Removing oils (hop oils or any other oils), so ideally you want surfactnats to help with this
2. Its not particularly good if you have hard water. so you really need softening agents to help your cleaner do it's job
3. It's not good at removing beer stone on it's own

So yes sodium percarbonate will do a lot of the heavy lifting and it's cheap when you purchase it on it's own. With that said if you only use this product you will be leaving some of the soiling behind as it cant remove everything on it's own. So typically if you continue to use sodium percarbonate over and over again you will start to notice your fermenters might start getting a small build up of the other soiling that it's not effective against. I wish it was possible to make a fantastic cleaning product which could be used on a wide range of soiling and only contained one ingredient but the reality is a good cleaner will have at least a few ingredients as there are several different reactions that need to take place in order for a good cleaner to work well. If you look at PBW it contains 7 ingredients in total. We are also making our own powdered brewery wash that will also contain 7 ingredients too. We will stock straight sodium percarbonate as well in 1kg tubs very soon as well but we will push customers to get the full formulation as it simply works better.

Have been using sodium percarbonate for a long time now, and do not agree with point 1.

I have soaked my fermenters in percarbonate after heavy dry hop loadings (200g plus in 23 litres) and all traces of aroma from the hops is removed. This to me would indicate that the hop oils have infact been removed. It has also removed 100% of the soiling every time in fermenters and no chill cubes. You are correct that it doesn’t remove beer stone on its own, but it does loosen it to the point where a light scrub will remove most of it if you have given your equipment a good hot soak. Obviously no good for beer stone build up in kegs for that reason. As a whole though it is a very good and effective cleaner.

 

[pist]

I feel that by discrediting a low cost solution proven to be effective by many home brewers over the years and instead peddling a product of your own, you are just discrediting yourself. Aside from this, isn’t active peddling of ones wares in every single thread concerning products that they sell against the forum rules? Or is this allowed for this particular retailer? I’m fairly certain if brewman or one of the others did this, they would be promptly handed a ban or at the very least a stern warning

 

[Black Devil Dog]

I have thought about rinsing but arnt you just getting rid of the sanitation ? whats the point of doing it in first place

Not really, immediately after rinsing my kegs with boiling water, I seal them, purge them a few times with co2 and they remain sealed. I fill them straight away and I don't open them to fill, they're filled through the beer out post.

The fermenters are also rinsed with boiling water and sealed until I fill them, which is very soon after and they do have to be opened, but the length of time that they're exposed is only a few minutes, I'm satisfied that the risk, while not zero, is certainly minimal.

 

[altone]

Once it is added to water at dosage rate it isn't so bad, yes you would still need to wear safety glasses and it does burn your hands but after an hour it is gone. Can't buy it in to big a quantity as it has to be kept in a fridge.
PTSAN5
http://www.jaegaraustralia.com.au/product_data/TechDataPDF/Jaegar_Product Brochure_spreads.pdf

Well it certainly might be something to try for those getting persistent off flavours/infections and probably good for my "spring clean"

Hopefully it's available in small sizes. I only saw 25l cubes for sale in my quick search.

@pist I agree Perc works fine if you've got decent water quality, but a mix like PBW or Stellarclean is even better especially for tough buildup or areas with hard water.
I make up my own PBW clone so I'm not touting any commercial sellers wares

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Well it certainly might be something to try for those getting persistent off flavours/infections and probably good for my "spring clean"

Hopefully it's available in small sizes. I only saw 25l cubes for sale in my quick search.

@pist I agree Perc works fine if you've got decent water quality, but a mix like PBW or Stellarclean is even better especially for tough buildup or areas with hard water.
I make up my own PBW clone so I'm not touting any commercial sellers wares

Not to far from you, Boronia.
https://www.anpros.com.au/search.php?search_query=proxitane&x=9&y=11

 

[altone]

Not to far from you, Boronia.
https://www.anpros.com.au/search.php?search_query=proxitane&x=9&y=11

Thanks WEAL I've bought stuff from them in the past - might get the little 2.5kg one.

 

[KegLand-com-au]

Have been using sodium percarbonate for a long time now, and do not agree to point 1.

I have soaked my fermenters in percarbonate after heavy dry hop loadings (200g plus in 23 litres) and all traces of aroma from the hops is removed. This to me would indicate that the hop oils have infact been removed. It has also removed 100% of the soiling every time in fermenters and no chill cubes. You are correct that it doesn’t remove beer stone on its own, but it does loosen it to the point where a light scrub will remove most of it if you have given your equipment a good hot soak. Obviously no good for beer stone build up in kegs for that reason. As a whole though it is a very good and effective cleaner.

If you have soft water you might be lucky and if you manually scrub from time to time this will also remove oils to some degree.

It's fair to say sodium percarbonate will remove most aromas quite well however oils are completely insoluable in sodium percarbonate solution so it will probably be your manual scrubbing that is removing this residual hop oil not the sodium percarbonate itself.

I know products like this are more expensive than sodium percarbonate:
https://www.kegland.com.au/stellarc...ewery-cleaner-beer-line-cleaner-keg-wash.html
If price is the major factor then yes sodium percarbonate might be the best option economically.

Other than price do you find that pure sodium percarbonate is better in any other way? If you would like to test out, compare and report back on the forum let me know and I will throw in a free 1kg jar of our StellarClean cleaner to your next order with us. Just PM me for more informaton if you want to do a side by side comparison.