Sparge water treatment
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fungrel
Well-Known Member
I was also going to say that you have lactic and phosphoric mixed up.mtb said:
My own experiences back the statements from Martin, and i switched over last year to phosphoric.
Danscraftbeer
Well-Known Member
I feel blessed.
I'm on Melbourne water (Cardinia reservoir). Its pH 7.3 on tap and after my filter its pH 6. B)
So I don't add anything to the sparge water. Isnt that just farkn awesome?
Filter Brand is: Pure Water Systems. A filter cartridge is ~$130 It lasts one year. Check out the deets for scrutiny if needed.
I actually got the housing for free on a random phone call about local water quality. Believe it or not!
I'm on Melbourne water (Cardinia reservoir). Its pH 7.3 on tap and after my filter its pH 6. B)
So I don't add anything to the sparge water. Isnt that just farkn awesome?
Filter Brand is: Pure Water Systems. A filter cartridge is ~$130 It lasts one year. Check out the deets for scrutiny if needed.
I actually got the housing for free on a random phone call about local water quality. Believe it or not!
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
Be surprised and alarmed if anyone's water requires enough acid to actually taste whether it's lactic or phosphoric. Have used both, would use either again.
Danscraftbeer
Well-Known Member
True that. Check measurements to be tiny.
I got me a little bottle of 96% Pure Phosphoric Acid and did the geeky experiments.
Its just tiny weeny amounts (like drops) make big amounts in a mass of water (~10 - 30l) mixed very well before testing.
So use a good pH meter and get scientific rather than have any shot in the dark with this stuff.
I got me a little bottle of 96% Pure Phosphoric Acid and did the geeky experiments.
Its just tiny weeny amounts (like drops) make big amounts in a mass of water (~10 - 30l) mixed very well before testing.
So use a good pH meter and get scientific rather than have any shot in the dark with this stuff.
Danscraftbeer
Well-Known Member
That's a good question. Its the result I get from my filter. On my second cartridge now so 17 months and it is consistent.Adr_0 said:
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
Distilled water reacts with CO2 from atmosphere to become mildly acidic if I remember correctly - presume this might work similarly?
labels
Well-Known Member
I think what amazes me with the comments in this thread is the following:
How do you know you have to add acid? Have you actually measured the the pH of your mash - including during the sparge and if so did you use a relaible pH meter or one of the useless pieces of shit from Ebay?
Did you use an online calculator which has little basis in science whatsoever? especially not taking ino account the buffering capacity of the mash?
And further, do you actually know the buffering capacity of the mash??
Are you just assuming the higher pH of your water will automatically raise the pH of your mash and lautering? Or have you traken into account the natural mineral content of the water and it's ability to lower the pH of your mash?
How do you know what effect a slightly higher pH will have on your finished beer, have you done side-by-side experiments to know?
Seems to me your dabbling in alchemy. Out of all the things to worry about with brewing, I would put mash pH a long way down the list unless you're using really dodgy water - bore water for example that is really, really bad.
How do you know you have to add acid? Have you actually measured the the pH of your mash - including during the sparge and if so did you use a relaible pH meter or one of the useless pieces of shit from Ebay?
Did you use an online calculator which has little basis in science whatsoever? especially not taking ino account the buffering capacity of the mash?
And further, do you actually know the buffering capacity of the mash??
Are you just assuming the higher pH of your water will automatically raise the pH of your mash and lautering? Or have you traken into account the natural mineral content of the water and it's ability to lower the pH of your mash?
How do you know what effect a slightly higher pH will have on your finished beer, have you done side-by-side experiments to know?
Seems to me your dabbling in alchemy. Out of all the things to worry about with brewing, I would put mash pH a long way down the list unless you're using really dodgy water - bore water for example that is really, really bad.
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
Anyone serious about water chemistry should measure mash pH at several points to get a feel for what is going on. Not every brew necessarily but enough times to get a real understanding.
Mash buffering capacity is less relevant when sparging - that's the point. Not really alchemy mate.
Mash buffering capacity is less relevant when sparging - that's the point. Not really alchemy mate.
I think this topic is more about sparge water, rather than mash water. The pH of the water towards the end of a fly sparge is likely to have some effect. I'd guess that tannin extraction is the primary concern.
labels said:
while some (like I) dont utilise a pH meter at this stage, tools like Bru'n Water have been shown to pretty well predict the water calcs based on starting water profile and generic grain bill info
I personally think as long as you are consistent, and understand that these tools are just calculations, then its a good way to utilise water profiles and pH adjustments to move your brewing water in the right direction
If you want to spend the $ on a pH meter, then yes, you will get more accurate results (or you might just confirm what things like Bru'n Water are predicting)
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
I'd be surprised to learn that the calculators aren't based on science too by the way, Labels. Maybe Martin can illuminate us on which mediaeval or gnostic script he bases his spreadsheet.
Jack of all biers
Well-Known Member
Chapters 5 & 6 and Appendix B in "Water - A comprehensive Guide for Brewers" cover the whys and wherefores of Acid additions and science behind not only Sparge water acid additions, but the addition of different acids on flavours and/or calcium reduction in a very thorough way. Written by John Palmer and Colin Kaminski, but Appendix B is contributed by A.J. deLange whose research and additions to brewing science and understanding is enormous. It is a well researched and proofed (by Martin Brungard for one) and goes into the buffering powers of both the water and the mash in consideration of acid additions to sparge water. The whole book is worthy of reading for a full understanding, but I quote from pg 120 "Acidification of Mashing and Sparging Water";labels said:
"...As the sparging water rinses the bed, the sugars and buffers are rinsed away and the pH shifts towards the pH of the sparging water. If the sparging water is alkaline, the mash pH will rise and the extraction of tannins, silicates and ash from the malt husks is more likely as it approaches a pH of 5.8....
...The easy solution is to stop sparging when the pH hits 5.8, or when the specific gravity falls below 1.008, and top up the kettle with hot liquor alone. This will only cause a small drop in efficiency while preventing significant off-flavors in the beer. However, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as they say. The better solution is to acidity the sparge water to a pH in the mash target range, which should effectively prevent the pH of the mash from rising above the 5.8...The rise in mash pH at the end of the sparge is more common to lower-gravity paler styles where the buffering systems in the mash are weaker and/or more dilute. It can also occur in low-gravity darker styles where the melanoidin concentration (a buffer) is actually low despite the high color wort."
The above section goes on to provide an example from Sierra Nevada Brewing & Co, where the procedures for mashing with standard salts versus mashing with double calcium levels versus brewing liquor acidified to pH 5.7. The resultant beers were tested and proofed by a panel of 38 trained members in a triangle test. The mash pH were 5.49 (standard salts), 5.38 (double calcium) and 5.30 (acidification of liquor). The results were that the end runnings of 5.91 (standard salts in water with no acidification) versus 5.83 (double their normal calcium levels with no acidification) versus 5.56 (acidification of liquor of 5.7). The subsequent triangle taste tests by the trained tasters statistically confirmed that the acidification of the liquor produced less astringency, harshness and was more acceptable.
Precipitation of calcium due to phosphoric acid is extensively covered also in Chapter 6 and Appendix B. The results were that A.J. deLange found that when phosphoric acid is used to acidify to the typical mash pH values (5.2-5.6) instead of 6.5 to 7 then the calcium retention is greater. This is due to a greater saturation limit for calcium at lower pH values, but (there's always a but
) the total alkalinity also has to be taken into account as the higher the alkalinity the lower the calcium saturation. It becomes a balance and Labels is correct that one must know ones water quite well before playing with phosphoric acid at least. This only applies to phosphoric acid however and not the other commonly used acids.My personal observations are with both rain and Adelaide mains water (of which Labels would be very familar) and I have thoroughly tested with a good pH meter (accurate to 0.01) that is calibrated every time it is used with all measurements conducted with 20-25C sample temps. I have tested water pH, mash pH (prior to and after salt and acid malt additions), first runnings & end runnings with untreated sparge water. I found that most often the end runnings did not go above the pH 6 level, but on occasion they did (pale grains used) and they always went above 5.8 (even with rain water at pH 6.4). Whilst Labels is right to be skeptical about adding acid willy nilly, the suggestion that doing so in any case is dabbling in alchemy is incorrect.
It is recommended in the above book as a good insurance policy and since I have acidified my sparge water, the end runnings have come in lower than 5.8 (EDIT - the last brew end runnings was 5.51 measured. See below for mash pH).
As far as the question of the online calculators, well my personal experience is only with that of Brewers Friend. Brewers Friend post where they have gotten their information from regarding the maths used in the calculators. I have consistently found that the predicted mash pH has been so close to my resultant measurements that I am happy to use it as a very good way to test the recipe/salt additions prior to brewing. I still measure my pH at the various stages, but am happy knowing that the resultant pH will be within 0.1 of the prediction when formulating my recipe (my last predicted mash pH was 5.36 and the measured was 5.38).
Have used a few different acids over the years, I prefer Lactic. Mainly because something like 90% of the naturally occurring acidity in malt comes from lactic acid made by bacteria living on the malt. Making a small addition of something that is already there feels like a better choice.
The other concern I have always had is with the possibility of a reaction between Phosphoric Acid and Calcium, we add Ca to our mash/sparge/kettle to get two effects; the pH lowering effect of H+ being relaced when relatively insoluble Calcium Phosphate forms and precipitates (reducing the Ca in solution); the benefits of Ca on yeast health and flocculation in the following ferment.
Have to do some more study on the effect of Phosphoric and Calcium reactions.
Have concluded (and even understand) that there is a real science behind water chemistry, its farking complex!
So I just got a good pH meter, know what's in my water, add Ca to need and tweak the pH to where I want it.
Mark
The other concern I have always had is with the possibility of a reaction between Phosphoric Acid and Calcium, we add Ca to our mash/sparge/kettle to get two effects; the pH lowering effect of H+ being relaced when relatively insoluble Calcium Phosphate forms and precipitates (reducing the Ca in solution); the benefits of Ca on yeast health and flocculation in the following ferment.
Have to do some more study on the effect of Phosphoric and Calcium reactions.
Have concluded (and even understand) that there is a real science behind water chemistry, its farking complex!
So I just got a good pH meter, know what's in my water, add Ca to need and tweak the pH to where I want it.
Mark
mabrungard
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The need to acidify your sparging water is entirely contingent on the alkalinity of the raw water. If your water source has little alkalinity (like distilled or RO water), then you may not need to acidify at all. Water with little alkalinity (less than 25 ppm), generally doesn't have to be acidified. But waters with high alkalinity does have to be acidified to neutralize that alkalinity.
An important factor is that pH should not be used as the primary criterion for determining if your water is acidified enough. For example, a water with high alkalinity can be acidified to 5.8 and still have a lot more than 25 ppm alkalinity remaining, while a water like RO that is acidified to the same standard will have almost no alkalinity. It is important to understand that alkalinity remaining in your sparging water consumes some of the acidity that your mash has already produced. Its that remaining alkalinity that will drive your kettle wort pH up more than you would want. Alkalinity is the real criterion for sparging water treatment.
While phosphoric acid has one of the lowest taste impacts to beer, don't poo-poo the use of lactic acid. I strongly feel that the use of lactic acid in German and continental styles can be an important element in their taste. Using at least some lactic acid or acid malt in your brewing of those styles can produce a more authentic result. The supporter's version of Bru'n Water includes the capability to use multiple acids for your brew. Lactic acid can definitely be tasted by the time the lactate ion concentration reaches about 400 ppm. Keeping lactate well below that level is recommended. Using a portion of lactic and some other acid could help you moderate the effects of neutralizing your high alkalinity water and producing great beer flavor.
An important factor is that pH should not be used as the primary criterion for determining if your water is acidified enough. For example, a water with high alkalinity can be acidified to 5.8 and still have a lot more than 25 ppm alkalinity remaining, while a water like RO that is acidified to the same standard will have almost no alkalinity. It is important to understand that alkalinity remaining in your sparging water consumes some of the acidity that your mash has already produced. Its that remaining alkalinity that will drive your kettle wort pH up more than you would want. Alkalinity is the real criterion for sparging water treatment.
While phosphoric acid has one of the lowest taste impacts to beer, don't poo-poo the use of lactic acid. I strongly feel that the use of lactic acid in German and continental styles can be an important element in their taste. Using at least some lactic acid or acid malt in your brewing of those styles can produce a more authentic result. The supporter's version of Bru'n Water includes the capability to use multiple acids for your brew. Lactic acid can definitely be tasted by the time the lactate ion concentration reaches about 400 ppm. Keeping lactate well below that level is recommended. Using a portion of lactic and some other acid could help you moderate the effects of neutralizing your high alkalinity water and producing great beer flavor.
Just back of an envelope calculation 400ppm of lactic would give a pH of around 2.3, so no one would be adding anywhere near that sort concentration, Concentrations more like 1/100th as high would be more typical, 4ppm should give around 4.3pH in distilled water not the same in a wort.
So I wouldn't be too worried about getting anywhere near the flavour threshold when using lactic for pH adjustments.
Mark
So I wouldn't be too worried about getting anywhere near the flavour threshold when using lactic for pH adjustments.
Mark
Jack of all biers
Well-Known Member
Yes,but Lactic acid can be present in beers as a natural by-product of fermentation in the range of 50-300 ppm, so depending on the beer being produced and the water alkalinity being countered, it is possible to go over the 400 ppm without realizing it. Especially if the water is high in alkalinity.
As an aside, I have nothing against Lactic acid and occasionally use it, via Acidulated malt, myself as a preference to Phosphoric acid, which I use to acidify my sparge water.
As an aside, I have nothing against Lactic acid and occasionally use it, via Acidulated malt, myself as a preference to Phosphoric acid, which I use to acidify my sparge water.
Jack of all biers
Well-Known Member
It is according to the Water book, who reference from Briggs, et al., Malting and Brewing Science, Vol. 2, Chapmand and Hall, London, 1981.
I haven't read the source material myself, so it could mean in totality, including mashing, but the quote from the Water book is "Lactic acid is reported to have a flavor threshold of about 400 ppm in beer (referenced to the above book). The flavor threshold can vary between tasters. Therefore, the 400 ppm threshold may not hold for all individuals. In addition, many beers typically have a low concentration of lactic acid (typically 50 to 300 ppm) naturally, from fermentation by-products (again referenced to above book). Therefore, it may not be possible to add less than 400 ppm of lactic acid to water for alkalinity reduction without flavor impact."
It's funny, because when I just looked up Br'un water, as I remembered something similar there, I found the quotes to be very similar and both reference the same source.
From Br'un water
4.3.4 Liquid Organic Acids such as Lactic and Acetic Acid can be used for alkalinity reduction and acidification.
Lactic Acid is readily available for brewing use, but it can produce a distinctive “tang” in the flavor profile at high concentration. The lactic acid flavor is typically characterized as smooth. It is a weak acid that can be somewhat safer to handle than other stronger acids. Lactic acid is reported to have a flavor threshold of about 400 ppm in beer (Briggs et al., 1981). The flavor threshold can vary between tasters. Therefore, the 400 ppm threshold may not hold for all individuals. In addition, typical beers (especially German beers) naturally have a low concentration of lactic acid (typically 50 to 300 ppm) from malting, fermentation, and production by-products (Briggs et al., 1981). Therefore, it may not be possible to add 400 ppm of lactic acid to water for alkalinity reduction, without flavor impact. Lactic acid is a monoprotic acid and it consumes 1 part bicarbonate per one part lactic acid. For these reasons, it appears that the maximum alkalinity neutralization that lactic acid could provide for brewing is about 100 to 350 ppm reduction in bicarbonate (82 to 287 ppm alkalinity reduction, as CaCO3) in the water. Lactic acid is quite stable and does not degrade appreciably when stored at room temperature. The shelf life of lactic acid stored at 80°C (176°F) is reported at over 80 years. (www.epa.gov/hpv/pubs/summaries/lactacid/c13462rs.pdf)
EDIT - as I guessed, the quote from Br'un includes malting, fermentation and production by-products, so it is in totality, not just from fermenation, though it does include fermentation, which is interesting. I guess some lactate is produced in fermentation perhaps? Or perhaps the source just included soured beers, which makes sense.
2nd EDIT - Found this exert that leaves me wanting more info, but anyway, it states that yeast do produce some lactic acid.
pg 38 Yeast - the practical guide to fermentation - White, Zainascheff 2010
"Organic Acids
During fermentation, yeast also produce varying levels of organic acids such as acetic, lactic, butyric, and caproic. In most fermenations, the concentrations produced are below the flavor threshold, which is usually a good thing."
3rd EDIT - Is it possible that instead of all the Pyruvate being broken down by the yeast in the two step process using the enzyme pyruvate decarboxylase and alcohol dehydrogenase into ethanol and NAD+, that some of the pyruvate reacts with NADH and H+ which turns them into lactic acid and NAD+?
Pyruvate + NADH + H(+) becomes Lactate + NAD(+).
4th EDIT - However it is done, it appears that yeast do produce lactic acid during fermentation. It makes up some of the 5% of other by-products when CO2 and ethanol are produced from sugars (first paragraph of attachment)
View attachment J. Biol. Chem.-1948-Fales-1-8.pdf
I haven't read the source material myself, so it could mean in totality, including mashing, but the quote from the Water book is "Lactic acid is reported to have a flavor threshold of about 400 ppm in beer (referenced to the above book). The flavor threshold can vary between tasters. Therefore, the 400 ppm threshold may not hold for all individuals. In addition, many beers typically have a low concentration of lactic acid (typically 50 to 300 ppm) naturally, from fermentation by-products (again referenced to above book). Therefore, it may not be possible to add less than 400 ppm of lactic acid to water for alkalinity reduction without flavor impact."
It's funny, because when I just looked up Br'un water, as I remembered something similar there, I found the quotes to be very similar and both reference the same source.
From Br'un water
4.3.4 Liquid Organic Acids such as Lactic and Acetic Acid can be used for alkalinity reduction and acidification.
Lactic Acid is readily available for brewing use, but it can produce a distinctive “tang” in the flavor profile at high concentration. The lactic acid flavor is typically characterized as smooth. It is a weak acid that can be somewhat safer to handle than other stronger acids. Lactic acid is reported to have a flavor threshold of about 400 ppm in beer (Briggs et al., 1981). The flavor threshold can vary between tasters. Therefore, the 400 ppm threshold may not hold for all individuals. In addition, typical beers (especially German beers) naturally have a low concentration of lactic acid (typically 50 to 300 ppm) from malting, fermentation, and production by-products (Briggs et al., 1981). Therefore, it may not be possible to add 400 ppm of lactic acid to water for alkalinity reduction, without flavor impact. Lactic acid is a monoprotic acid and it consumes 1 part bicarbonate per one part lactic acid. For these reasons, it appears that the maximum alkalinity neutralization that lactic acid could provide for brewing is about 100 to 350 ppm reduction in bicarbonate (82 to 287 ppm alkalinity reduction, as CaCO3) in the water. Lactic acid is quite stable and does not degrade appreciably when stored at room temperature. The shelf life of lactic acid stored at 80°C (176°F) is reported at over 80 years. (www.epa.gov/hpv/pubs/summaries/lactacid/c13462rs.pdf)
EDIT - as I guessed, the quote from Br'un includes malting, fermentation and production by-products, so it is in totality, not just from fermenation, though it does include fermentation, which is interesting. I guess some lactate is produced in fermentation perhaps? Or perhaps the source just included soured beers, which makes sense.
2nd EDIT - Found this exert that leaves me wanting more info, but anyway, it states that yeast do produce some lactic acid.
pg 38 Yeast - the practical guide to fermentation - White, Zainascheff 2010
"Organic Acids
During fermentation, yeast also produce varying levels of organic acids such as acetic, lactic, butyric, and caproic. In most fermenations, the concentrations produced are below the flavor threshold, which is usually a good thing."
3rd EDIT - Is it possible that instead of all the Pyruvate being broken down by the yeast in the two step process using the enzyme pyruvate decarboxylase and alcohol dehydrogenase into ethanol and NAD+, that some of the pyruvate reacts with NADH and H+ which turns them into lactic acid and NAD+?
Pyruvate + NADH + H(+) becomes Lactate + NAD(+).
4th EDIT - However it is done, it appears that yeast do produce lactic acid during fermentation. It makes up some of the 5% of other by-products when CO2 and ethanol are produced from sugars (first paragraph of attachment)
View attachment J. Biol. Chem.-1948-Fales-1-8.pdf
