Sparge water treatment

[MHB]

That is a reasonable option, water chemistry can be pretty basic or carried to extremes. If you get the basics right that will get you most of the benefits after that its fine-tuning and personal taste.
Basics for me are :-
Have a reasonable Ca content in the mash, I would start with 100ppm total (minimum) unless your Mg content is very high, if so wind the Ca back a bit.
Get the mash pH right, add acid or acid malt to get into the right range.
Whether or not your salts are added to the mash only or you are treating all your water first, acidify your sparge water, make sure the pH is <6. This makes a big difference to the rate that Tannins can be extracted from the husks (adding astringency).

Bonenose. Where are you located? I had a look at the water for a small brewery in Victoria (Blizzard) their "town" water is bore water, but its snow melt water held on a granite base, the local utility just UV sterilise it and pump it, so no Cl to remove and next to nothing else in it, dam near distilled water.
Have to admit that that is an exception, bore water is often quite high in salts - have you got an analysis, if so share, would be interesting to see just what is in there.
Mark

 

[good4whatAlesU]

As MHB says bore water can be fantastic and it also can be ordinary depending on the aquifer it's being drawn from and the mineralogy of geology.

Speight's in Dunedin have access to lovely bore water and for "megaswill" actually make some lovely beers - their Gold Medal Ale is not bad at all.

Edit: The gold medal ale on tap is from the Dunedin factory (using bore water). The bottles and cans are brewed in Auckland (not using bore water) and apparently are not as good.

 

[fungrel]

Right, correct me if I am wrong, so I can do my salt additions to achieve my desired water profile in with my mash water only, using total water volume in the calculator of course and then just an acid addition to the sparge water to adjust pH.

Yep. Just to complicate your thought process, I only add salts to the mash when making lagers but i always acidify sparge water.

It all depends on which style you are brewing though as the timing of these additions can change and do have an impact on the final flavour profile.

As an example, I measure acid and other salts that are then added to the boil as a sort of "salt and pepper" when making hoppy beers.



There are a lot of ways you can add these minerals, i think most simply add in the mash, acidify sparge water and leave it at that, and that is a perfectly acceptable way of doing things. It can be as simple or as complex as you like it to be.

 

[mtb]

Yep. Just to complicate your thought process, I only add salts to the mash when making lagers but i always acidify sparge water.

It all depends on which style you are brewing though as the timing of these additions can change and do have an impact on the final flavour profile.

As an example, I measure acid and other salts that are then added to the boil as a sort of "salt and pepper" when making hoppy beers.



There are a lot of ways you can add these minerals, i think most simply add in the mash and leave it at that, and that is a perfectly acceptable way of doing things. It can be as simple or as complex as you like it to be.

You add acid and salts to the boil? All info I can find seems to indicate that would only contribute to flavour. Why not add to the mash?

 

[fungrel]

You add acid and salts to the boil? All info I can find seems to indicate that would only contribute to flavour. Why not add to the mash?

In that instance i add salts to the mash and to the boil. Style-dependent.

Like MHB and others have reiterated in previous posts, calcium is important for certain beer styles. It's always important for yeast health.

I always add acid and salts to the mash, i brew with RO water with a starting pH of ~10.0. I always acidify sparge water. The water you sparge with should be as considered as that of the mash water. Extracting tannins from too high a pH is very real. Been there, and it sucks.

 

[Bonenose]

Located out of Darwin, have attached details of bore reports below top one is water resources bore two blocks down from me bore report for it is recent as it is used as a water quality test bore second one is from my original bore report and I have been using an average of the two in the water calculator, have looked at a few other reports from blocks around mine and are all fairly similar water resources bore has the most recent report however these are from different times of the year therefore thinking that the average will give me a reasonable base line to work from.

​

Bore​

pH​

Alkalinity​

Total Hardness​

Ca​

Mg​

SO[SIZE=8pt]4[/SIZE]​

Na​

Cl​

HCO[SIZE=8pt]3[/SIZE]​

WR 29384​

7.5​

124​

131​

20.5​

19.5​

1.7​

2.3​

4.7​

124​

Mine 28873​

7.8​

190​

198​

33​

28​

7​

2​

7​

232​

Average​

7.65​

157​

164.5​

26.75​

23.75​

4.35​

2.15​

5.85​

178​

​

Ok would appear that I cannot insert a table but numbers are there if you can make sense of them​

 

[manticle]

You add acid and salts to the boil? All info I can find seems to indicate that would only contribute to flavour. Why not add to the mash?

While getting mash pH right is super important, boil pH is also relevant.

@fungrel - your RO water is pH 10?

 

[fungrel]

While getting mash pH right is super important, boil pH is also relevant.

@fungrel - your RO water is pH 10?

Yes. 6 stage unit with alkalizing filter. So i could load up on Sulfate when making hoppy beers without having to add anything to bring up pH. Works well.

 

[Adr_0]

Located out of Darwin, have attached details of bore reports below top one is water resources bore two blocks down from me bore report for it is recent as it is used as a water quality test bore second one is from my original bore report and I have been using an average of the two in the water calculator, have looked at a few other reports from blocks around mine and are all fairly similar water resources bore has the most recent report however these are from different times of the year therefore thinking that the average will give me a reasonable base line to work from.

​

Bore​

pH​

Alkalinity​

Total Hardness​

Ca​

Mg​

SO[SIZE=8pt]4[/SIZE]​

Na​

Cl​

HCO[SIZE=8pt]3[/SIZE]​

WR 29384​

7.5​

124​

131​

20.5​

19.5​

1.7​

2.3​

4.7​

124​

Mine 28873​

7.8​

190​

198​

33​

28​

7​

2​

7​

232​

Average​

7.65​

157​

164.5​

26.75​

23.75​

4.35​

2.15​

5.85​

178​

​

Ok would appear that I cannot insert a table but numbers are there if you can make sense of them​

so that's looking like you'll need to acidify your sparge water, and likely your mash water too:

Alkalinity - 190
Hardness - 198
Calcium - 33
Magnesium - 28
Sulphate - 7
Sodium - 2
Chloride - 7

Lactic acid is the way to do this. You could arguably use acidulated malt in the mash instead.

Have you got a water calculator spreadsheet? There is certainly room to move on calcium, sulphate and chloride so you should probably get your hands on some calcium sulphate (gypsum) and calcium chloride as well as the lactic acid.

Otherwise, you can try diluting it a little with distilled water. Not necessarily economical (Pureau from Coles at $10/10L) but might be ok in a small/normal batch size.

 

[Adr_0]

so that's looking like you'll need to acidify your sparge water, and likely your mash water too:

Alkalinity - 190
Hardness - 198
Calcium - 33
Magnesium - 28
Sulphate - 7
Sodium - 2
Chloride - 7

Lactic acid is the way to do this. You could arguably use acidulated malt in the mash instead.

Have you got a water calculator spreadsheet? There is certainly room to move on calcium, sulphate and chloride so you should probably get your hands on some calcium sulphate (gypsum) and calcium chloride as well as the lactic acid.

Otherwise, you can try diluting it a little with distilled water. Not necessarily economical (Pureau from Coles at $10/10L) but might be ok in a small/normal batch size.

I should clarify that darker beers (amber ales, porters, stouts) will be fine to mash as-is, but pale beers/pils/wheat will struggle to pull the pH down.

 

[MHB]

Your Bicarbonate is high enough to be a concern, Lactic or Phosphoric (I prefer lactic) in the sparge would be a must.
Ca and Mg are low so some salt additions would be a good idea but some acidification is a must for both mash and sparge water - especially for pale beers.
Read Braukaiser on RA, well put together and gives you a really good idea why the Bicarbonate is so important.
Must be some limestone under that there ground.
Mark

 

[Bonenose]

Have been messing around with brewers friend calculator, looking at gypsum for calcium and then salt for chloride ratio. Mash pH looks fairly good on the calculator as per previous posts need acid additions for sparge however

 

[labels]

You should read this and the following page.

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/residual-alkalinity-and-mash-ph

 

[Bonenose]

Limestone actually fairly low here have seen bores that you could build walls with the water

 

[Coodgee]

I agree that acidifying sparge water is important, especially for lower gravity or lighter coloured beers. If you're doing a big 7% red IPA you might not notice much difference but if you did a 3.5% pale ale you would probably notice a big difference.

 

[Jack of all biers]

Your Bicarbonate is high enough to be a concern, Lactic or Phosphoric (I prefer lactic) in the sparge would be a must.
Ca and Mg are low so some salt additions would be a good idea but some acidification is a must for both mash and sparge water - especially for pale beers.
Read Braukaiser on RA, well put together and gives you a really good idea why the Bicarbonate is so important.
Must be some limestone under that there ground.
Mark

Agree that the Ca is low, however at an average of 24ppm Mg his water source is sufficient in Mg and not low. Given pure DI water in a mash will produce about 70ppm Mg anyway, even that would fit in the 0-40 ppm Mg that is recommended.

Have been messing around with brewers friend calculator, looking at gypsum for calcium and then salt for chloride ratio. Mash pH looks fairly good on the calculator as per previous posts need acid additions for sparge however

Keep at the Brewers Friend Calculator. I have consistently found it to provide a very accurate prediction of my calculated mash pH. The mash for my last brew was predicted by BF to be 5.36 and the measured was 5.38. This seems to happen again and again with this calculator. However, quality data in means quality data out. If you forget to add something to the calculator or the mash then you can only blame the data entry person/brewer (you).

BE CAREFUL of using salt to up your chloride levels. 50ppm (mg/L) is the recommended max. and anything above 150ppm will give a salty taste. Better to up the chloride levels to balance the sulphate levels with CaSO3 (gypsum) and CaCl (calcium chloride). Try calculate a Ca level of 130 ish and Cl and SO3 levels around the 90-100 mark each to get a really good balanced beer flavour. You can add a gram or 2 of salt to the boil to up the sodium if you want as it wont help the mash at all (non-iodised and without anti-caking agents please as the yeast won't like you if you throw that at them)

You should read this and the following page.

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/residual-alkalinity-and-mash-ph

Agree with Labels. Read this and get a decent understanding of what's going on. When you're done reading that then read this https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge and get an even better understanding if you haven't already.

 

[Bonenose]

Awesome everyone, have been flat out so have not had a chance to do much more research but think I can see where I need to be going with my water. Definitely seeing the need for acid additions now and wondering how the hell did I miss calcium chloride when looking at additions. Anyway thanks everyone great info.

Cheers

 

[kaiserben]

I acidify my sparge water these days (use "Pure" 96% Phosphoric Acid).

I can't tell whether this has improved my beers or not, but I feel better for doing it :lol:

 

[mtb]

I acidify my sparge water these days (use "Pure" 96% Phosphoric Acid).

I can't tell whether this has improved my beers or not, but I feel better for doing it :lol:

Careful of phosphoric kaiserben, it has a flavour to it. Lactic apparently has less flavour.

 

[kaiserben]

Your comment had me worried, but I did a quick google and Martin Brungard (Bru'n Water) recommends phosphoric as having less flavour impact than lactic.

"Phosphoric acid is a very good choice for brewing use. It has the least flavor impact since there are already similar anions in the mash. Adding a few more does not alter the flavor. Lactic has a distinct taste that is certainly pleasant and desirable in some styles. The same can be said for sulfuric and hydrochloric. They are just more hazardous to handle. The whole issue of taste impact is contingent upon the amount of alkalinity you're having to deal with. If its a lot of alkalinity, then other forms of treatment are probably needed. "

Post # 8: here