Sparge water treatment

[Quokka42]

I'll stick by my original comment, with a slight proviso. As someone pointed out, it was late at night: For most of us in Australia, which officially has some of the best water in the world (for purity and cleanliness, we often lack in calcium for certain styles, but that only matters in the ferment and you don't need much,) use your tap water - boiling or adding Campden tablets if necessary when chlorine is high.

Sparging is just rinsing wort from the mash, and maybe raising the temperature to stop enzymatic activity.

As for the acid argument, I have taken local advice and switched to mostly lactic, but haven't had problems with citric, phosphoric or lactic when kept below the recommended equivalent of 5% acidified malt.

 

[MHB]

JOAB
If your referring to the Cori Cycle, I think that's mostly internal to a cell.
The only way anything approaching a tastable amount of Lactic or any of the other organic acids mentioned to turn up in the beer would be for the yeast to be so stressed at be unable to effectively ferment the beer, the extra Lactic would I suspect be the least of your problems.

I know Lactic, Phosphoric, Sulphuric and even Hydrochloric Acids are used in commercial brewing, I prefer Lactic for a number of reasons. Among them is safety, Phosphoric isn't too scary, but Lactic is a lot safer, and as mentioned above its a natural part of beer and a hell of a strong buffer...

Try the various options and decide what works best for you.
Mark

 

[Jack of all biers]

MHB, I've edited my last post since your post above, but yes agree, the amounts would be below the taste threshold. Just answering the question.

I personally use lactic (via acidulated malt) in the mash and phosphoric as back up or for sparge water treatment, so I guess I sit on the fence with a hedged bet

 

[eamonnfoley]

The need to acidify your sparging water is entirely contingent on the alkalinity of the raw water. If your water source has little alkalinity (like distilled or RO water), then you may not need to acidify at all. Water with little alkalinity (less than 25 ppm), generally doesn't have to be acidified. But waters with high alkalinity does have to be acidified to neutralize that alkalinity.

An important factor is that pH should not be used as the primary criterion for determining if your water is acidified enough. For example, a water with high alkalinity can be acidified to 5.8 and still have a lot more than 25 ppm alkalinity remaining, while a water like RO that is acidified to the same standard will have almost no alkalinity. It is important to understand that alkalinity remaining in your sparging water consumes some of the acidity that your mash has already produced. Its that remaining alkalinity that will drive your kettle wort pH up more than you would want. Alkalinity is the real criterion for sparging water treatment.

While phosphoric acid has one of the lowest taste impacts to beer, don't poo-poo the use of lactic acid. I strongly feel that the use of lactic acid in German and continental styles can be an important element in their taste. Using at least some lactic acid or acid malt in your brewing of those styles can produce a more authentic result. The supporter's version of Bru'n Water includes the capability to use multiple acids for your brew. Lactic acid can definitely be tasted by the time the lactate ion concentration reaches about 400 ppm. Keeping lactate well below that level is recommended. Using a portion of lactic and some other acid could help you moderate the effects of neutralizing your high alkalinity water and producing great beer flavor.

Just on the lactate threshold..... I have water that has about 150ppm of CaCO3 and low Calcium (~30), high chloride (~195), low sulfate (~25)

I have had limited success with this water for paler beers, needing about 4% acid malt or 6ml of lactic in a full volume mash (no sparging) to get a reasonable mash pH of about 5.5
I get a definite lactic flavour from this. Maybe in my case the Chloride is accentuating it because I didn't think that much lactic would be a problem if you are just eliminating alkalinity.

I have taken to just using my water for dark beers which turn out great.

 

[mabrungard]

To neutralize 150 ppm alkalinity, lactic acid use should not be anywhere near most people's taste threshold. However, there are some that are super-tasters or are sensitive to its flavor. I see that the chloride is very high and I can also infer that the sodium is high too. This may not be ideal for all beer style brewing, but you have taken the correct approach in brewing the beers that your water works well for.

 

[MHB]

I'll stick by my original comment, with a slight proviso. As someone pointed out, it was late at night: For most of us in Australia, which officially has some of the best water in the world (for purity and cleanliness, we often lack in calcium for certain styles, but that only matters in the ferment and you don't need much,) use your tap water - boiling or adding Campden tablets if necessary when chlorine is high.

Sparging is just rinsing wort from the mash, and maybe raising the temperature to stop enzymatic activity.

As for the acid argument, I have taken local advice and switched to mostly lactic, but haven't had problems with citric, phosphoric or lactic when kept below the recommended equivalent of 5% acidified malt.

Have to disagree with your opinion of the role of Calcium in brewing.

• It is one of the main pH reducing factors, Calcium reacts with malt phosphates forming insoluble Calcium Phosphate, leaving free Hydrogen ions (lowers the pH).
• Calcium protects Alpha Amylase from heat damage.
• Is important for the efficient operation of mash enzymes.
• Reacts with malt Oxalates to reduce the chance of gushing, Calcium Oxalate crystals (beer stone) provides lots of nucleation points. As a minimum 4.5X more Ca should be available than Oxalates.
• It is very important as part of the formation of break material in the kettle, helps to reduce unwanted protein and polyphenols.

Yes it is important for proper yeast health and flocculation, but that is far from all it does in brewing.

50-100 ppm is regarded as a minimum, my local water only has around 25ppm so my default position is to add 100ppm to all my water.
Mark

 

[eamonnfoley]

To neutralize 150 ppm alkalinity, lactic acid use should not be anywhere near most people's taste threshold. However, there are some that are super-tasters or are sensitive to its flavor. I see that the chloride is very high and I can also infer that the sodium is high too. This may not be ideal for all beer style brewing, but you have taken the correct approach in brewing the beers that your water works well for.

Yep sodium is up around a max of 135. This could be more of a factor with the pale beers. Not sure if sodium reacts with lactate ? Was thinking about trying lime treatment and gypsum supplementation for the calcium lost.

 

[MHB]

Lime wont help you at all with Sodium, it is used to reduce temporary Ca hardness.
Sodium wont react with Lactate, (well not in a brewing environment)
If I were you I would be looking at diluting your water with something softer, even adding 1/3 to 1/2 purified water would make a significant difference. You might also look at a reverse osmosis system for your brewery, they are fairly affordable now.
Mark

 

[Quokka42]

Have to disagree with your opinion of the role of Calcium in brewing.

• It is one of the main pH reducing factors, Calcium reacts with malt phosphates forming insoluble Calcium Phosphate, leaving free Hydrogen ions (lowers the pH).
• Calcium protects Alpha Amylase from heat damage.
• Is important for the efficient operation of mash enzymes.
• Reacts with malt Oxalates to reduce the chance of gushing, Calcium Oxalate crystals (beer stone) provides lots of nucleation points. As a minimum 4.5X more Ca should be available than Oxalates.
• It is very important as part of the formation of break material in the kettle, helps to reduce unwanted protein and polyphenols.

Yes it is important for proper yeast health and flocculation, but that is far from all it does in brewing.

50-100 ppm is regarded as a minimum, my local water only has around 25ppm so my default position is to add 100ppm to all my water.
Mark

Actually, I don't think we disagree all that much. Some beers such a Pilsners could probably be made with my local tap water boiled to remove chlorine, but I am actually adding salts to all of my ale recipes these days. I do not doubt any of the further information you have provided, forgive me for keeping things simple.

 

[eamonnfoley]

Lime wont help you at all with Sodium, it is used to reduce temporary Ca hardness.
Sodium wont react with Lactate, (well not in a brewing environment)
If I were you I would be looking at diluting your water with something softer, even adding 1/3 to 1/2 purified water would make a significant difference. You might also look at a reverse osmosis system for your brewery, they are fairly affordable now.
Mark

I want to try the lime for the alkalinity, not the sodium. I would like to try treating my water with lime before I go back to the hassle of producing RO water (which I've done in the past). Find the RO filters too slow.

Maybe the flavours of lactate and sodium just don't sit well together (speculation), if not reacting. Or maybe its just the sodium I am tasting in the pale beers.

Regards,

Eamonn

 

[Adr_0]

Just on the lactate threshold..... I have water that has about 150ppm of CaCO3 and low Calcium (~30), high chloride (~195), low sulfate (~25)

I have had limited success with this water for paler beers, needing about 4% acid malt or 6ml of lactic in a full volume mash (no sparging) to get a reasonable mash pH of about 5.5
I get a definite lactic flavour from this. Maybe in my case the Chloride is accentuating it because I didn't think that much lactic would be a problem if you are just eliminating alkalinity.

I have taken to just using my water for dark beers which turn out great.

So you have:
Calcium - 30ppm
Alkalinity - 130ppm
Sodium - 135ppm (up to?)
Chloride - 195ppm
Sulphate - 25ppm

Sounds like a great profile for porters and stouts.

What is your batch size? Although it's a little wasteful (packaging wise) and uneconomical, you could always get a few packs (10L and/or 5L) of Pureau from Coles/Woolies. Any idea what your chlorine levels are? If they are low you can possibly knock the carbon filter out of a typical 2/3 stage RO unit and just go straight to RO. You'd want to be confident your chlorine is very low though, probably 0.2-0.3ppm max. You could potentially set it up over a few few hours the night before, then again when you're cracking grain for example.

Calcium sulphate is probably the only salt you'd need on hand for other paler beers, but you'll never get a 'soft' mouthfeel by adding it or keeping your water the way it is. Soft water and mouthfeel is nice in wheat beers, blondes, pilsners - so getting an excellent version of these will need dilution of your salts.

 

[eamonnfoley]

So you have:
Calcium - 30ppm
Alkalinity - 130ppm
Sodium - 135ppm (up to?)
Chloride - 195ppm
Sulphate - 25ppm

Sounds like a great profile for porters and stouts.

What is your batch size? Although it's a little wasteful (packaging wise) and uneconomical, you could always get a few packs (10L and/or 5L) of Pureau from Coles/Woolies. Any idea what your chlorine levels are? If they are low you can possibly knock the carbon filter out of a typical 2/3 stage RO unit and just go straight to RO. You'd want to be confident your chlorine is very low though, probably 0.2-0.3ppm max. You could potentially set it up over a few few hours the night before, then again when you're cracking grain for example.

Calcium sulphate is probably the only salt you'd need on hand for other paler beers, but you'll never get a 'soft' mouthfeel by adding it or keeping your water the way it is. Soft water and mouthfeel is nice in wheat beers, blondes, pilsners - so getting an excellent version of these will need dilution of your salts.

Yep, done all this stuff and happy with results. My initial query was around the impact of acid / sodium on beer taste when having to add say 4% acid malt to pale beers. Theory and wisdom says that much acid should not be perceptible. But it seems to be for me.

 

[manticle]

At the end of the day, it's about flavour in your beer. If you think you taste acid, back off on it till you can't