Sparge water treatment

[Bonenose]

Hi all,

I have been looking into water treatment over the last few days and am a bit confused about sparge water treatment. I am using a Robobrew so at end of the mash lift mash pipe out and run sparge water through it, so given that my mash is over when doing this is there any point in treating my sparge water?

Am I missing something here, happy to admit my ignorance still new to me.

To clarify my water is is fairly neutral 7.6pH and no high levels of anything that I can tell, again given my limited knowledge, and also no chlorine.

Cheers

 

[good4whatAlesU]

Hi Bn,
It depends what beer you're brewing as to how the water profile should be adjusted.

Where are you sourcing your water?

 

[labels]

Hi all,

I have been looking into water treatment over the last few days and am a bit confused about sparge water treatment. I am using a Robobrew so at end of the mash lift mash pipe out and run sparge water through it, so given that my mash is over when doing this is there any point in treating my sparge water?

Am I missing something here, happy to admit my ignorance still new to me.

To clarify my water is is fairly neutral 7.6pH and no high levels of anything that I can tell, again given my limited knowledge, and also no chlorine.

Cheers

I can't see any reason to treat your sparge water any different from your mash water and I think most people here would use the same water.

pH is seldom a problem when brewing and of all the things you need to concern yourself about, pH is probably near the bottom. Unless you're using way-off water which you're not. You can add Calcium Chloride and/or Epsom Salts (Magnesium Sulphate) which will lower your pH and also alter your water profile. Also Gypsum will help.

The buffering effects of the natural acids in the mash are huge and adding acid has a limited effect. It will lower it but only to a point where it will pretty much bottom out.

My view, concentrate on brewing good beer, look after your yeast and leave the pH to look after itself.

 

[Bonenose]

Water source is bore water.
I am not really worried about pH have been messing around with water calculator on brewers freind and looking at making some additions of gypsum and salt based on this. Was just wondering if there was any advantage in treating my sparge water or if I just treat water for the mash.

 

[good4whatAlesU]

Your sparge water goes into your finished beer.. so yes, it's worth treating it if it has any flaws or if you are aiming for a particular profile.

 

[Bonenose]

According to water calculator my Ca and SO4 are low so using gypsum to bring them up and then salt for sulphate to chloride ratio. Brewed a few beers so far with no issue without any water treatment, wanted to have a crack at a few with some treated water see if there is much difference.

 

[MHB]

It is absolutely worth at least Acidifying your sparge water, other salt additions can be beneficial but acidifying is really important.
If the pH is Alkaline it will extract tannins really quickly, you also want the total amount of Ca in the kettle at the start of the boil to be 50-100ppm minimum.
So after having a look at your water profile, remember that the Ca content is on all the wort you collect, if you don't have enough in the mash water to keep the minimum Ca content when it is diluted with sparge water, adding more to the mash or to the sparge water is a good idea.
Mark

 

[Bonenose]

Calcium is only 25 so need to treat that, did not know about acidifying sparge water will have to get onto that.

 

[mtb]

I acidify sparge water with a quick 1mL shot of lactic acid. Easy to use, just grab a cheap syringe off fleaBay, and it's worth it for peace of mind IMO.

 

[manticle]

If you go to the effort of treating mash pH, it's worthwile treating the sparge water (and super easy). I just use lactic - extra calcium salts go to the kettle but either way is fine.

 

[Bonenose]

Ok cheers guys, I'll get on to it.

 

[Quokka42]

I disagree with most comments here, and agree with sources such as Brun and Brewer's Friend - use your water to sparge as is. The low pH is only required for the mash, which should be stopped by now, and it sounds like you have all the nutrients you need for the ferment. Read the comments on the Brun water site - if your brew turns out too malty the first thing to try is just boiling then decanting your water (bore water tends to be a bit hard.)

If it ain't broke - don't fix it.

 

[Jack of all biers]

+ 1 for MHB and Manticle's advice, but as a bit of explanation I'll expand. Labels is fairly well spot on for Mashing, but the question is about treating sparge water. If when sparging the liquor in the mash goes above a pH of 6 then you start to enter the territory of extraction of tannins which can lead to an astringency in your beer. If your mash is a pH of 5.2-5.8 then it will buffer at that pH for quite sometime before it rises with the pH of the sparge water. Now if as in the OP the sparge water pH is 7.6 then towards the end of the sparge the pH will naturally rise above 6 as the buffering ability of the mash is reduced as the sugars are rinsed away.

Whilst it is not a must, if you want to improve your beers by playing with your sparge water, then pH adjustment is the first place to start. Play with Brewers Friends advanced water calculator for sparge water adjustment. Calcium, zinc and other ions can be added too, but adding them to the mash maybe better to assist mash pH and enzyme activity.

And for the record the Water book, for which Martin Brungard had some input recommends that sparge water be adjusted to a pH of 5.7 (as insurance) to ensure that the mash pH never reaches 6 during the sparge. For example the heat of the sparge water then has no effect on tannin extraction when the pH is below 6 (decoction not extracting tannin astringency is a good example of this).

EDIT - my above writings are not just from reading books, but also from thorough and accurate testing of water (liquor and sparge), mash, first runnings and last runnings. Even with my average sparge water pH of 6.8 the last runnings have sometimes risen above 6, although on lighter coloured beers I'll admit and only just.

 

[manticle]

I disagree with most comments here, and agree with sources such as Brun and Brewer's Friend - use your water to sparge as is. The low pH is only required for the mash, which should be stopped by now, and it sounds like you have all the nutrients you need for the ferment. Read the comments on the Brun water site - if your brew turns out too malty the first thing to try is just boiling then decanting your water (bore water tends to be a bit hard.)

If it ain't broke - don't fix it.

Where does brun say that?

 

[MHB]

I disagree with most comments here, and agree with sources such as Brun and Brewer's Friend - use your water to sparge as is. The low pH is only required for the mash, which should be stopped by now, and it sounds like you have all the nutrients you need for the ferment. Read the comments on the Brun water site - if your brew turns out too malty the first thing to try is just boiling then decanting your water (bore water tends to be a bit hard.)

If it ain't broke - don't fix it.

I think you need to do a bit more reading, or perhaps re-reading because you clearly didn't understand the stuff you have read already.
The OP said his Ca was 25ppm, which is very low, however bore water can vary from near zero to so minerally it isn't drinkable, but at 25ppm it is unlikely to be "Hard" and recommending "boiling and decanting" the classic treatment for high temporary hardness isn't just irrelevant its pretty stupid.
Mark

 

[Mardoo]

I love AHB late night.

 

[Benn]

Now might be a good time for me to chime in with a question about which way round to hold the instructions for my Ph meter,

 

[Jack of all biers]

Depends if it's a cheap Chinese ebay one. If so, turn them upside down, light a match, stand back... h34r:

 

[rude]

Opp could use R/O water to sparge then he wouldnt have to acidify
but would have to buy R/O unit filters

 

[Bonenose]

Right, correct me if I am wrong, so I can do my salt additions to achieve my desired water profile in with my mash water only, using total water volume in the calculator of course and then just an acid addition to the sparge water to adjust pH.

 

[MHB]

That is a reasonable option, water chemistry can be pretty basic or carried to extremes. If you get the basics right that will get you most of the benefits after that its fine-tuning and personal taste.
Basics for me are :-
Have a reasonable Ca content in the mash, I would start with 100ppm total (minimum) unless your Mg content is very high, if so wind the Ca back a bit.
Get the mash pH right, add acid or acid malt to get into the right range.
Whether or not your salts are added to the mash only or you are treating all your water first, acidify your sparge water, make sure the pH is <6. This makes a big difference to the rate that Tannins can be extracted from the husks (adding astringency).

Bonenose. Where are you located? I had a look at the water for a small brewery in Victoria (Blizzard) their "town" water is bore water, but its snow melt water held on a granite base, the local utility just UV sterilise it and pump it, so no Cl to remove and next to nothing else in it, dam near distilled water.
Have to admit that that is an exception, bore water is often quite high in salts - have you got an analysis, if so share, would be interesting to see just what is in there.
Mark

 

[good4whatAlesU]

As MHB says bore water can be fantastic and it also can be ordinary depending on the aquifer it's being drawn from and the mineralogy of geology.

Speight's in Dunedin have access to lovely bore water and for "megaswill" actually make some lovely beers - their Gold Medal Ale is not bad at all.

Edit: The gold medal ale on tap is from the Dunedin factory (using bore water). The bottles and cans are brewed in Auckland (not using bore water) and apparently are not as good.

 

[fungrel]

Right, correct me if I am wrong, so I can do my salt additions to achieve my desired water profile in with my mash water only, using total water volume in the calculator of course and then just an acid addition to the sparge water to adjust pH.

Yep. Just to complicate your thought process, I only add salts to the mash when making lagers but i always acidify sparge water.

It all depends on which style you are brewing though as the timing of these additions can change and do have an impact on the final flavour profile.

As an example, I measure acid and other salts that are then added to the boil as a sort of "salt and pepper" when making hoppy beers.



There are a lot of ways you can add these minerals, i think most simply add in the mash, acidify sparge water and leave it at that, and that is a perfectly acceptable way of doing things. It can be as simple or as complex as you like it to be.

 

[mtb]

Yep. Just to complicate your thought process, I only add salts to the mash when making lagers but i always acidify sparge water.

It all depends on which style you are brewing though as the timing of these additions can change and do have an impact on the final flavour profile.

As an example, I measure acid and other salts that are then added to the boil as a sort of "salt and pepper" when making hoppy beers.



There are a lot of ways you can add these minerals, i think most simply add in the mash and leave it at that, and that is a perfectly acceptable way of doing things. It can be as simple or as complex as you like it to be.

You add acid and salts to the boil? All info I can find seems to indicate that would only contribute to flavour. Why not add to the mash?

 

[fungrel]

You add acid and salts to the boil? All info I can find seems to indicate that would only contribute to flavour. Why not add to the mash?

In that instance i add salts to the mash and to the boil. Style-dependent.

Like MHB and others have reiterated in previous posts, calcium is important for certain beer styles. It's always important for yeast health.

I always add acid and salts to the mash, i brew with RO water with a starting pH of ~10.0. I always acidify sparge water. The water you sparge with should be as considered as that of the mash water. Extracting tannins from too high a pH is very real. Been there, and it sucks.

 

[Bonenose]

Located out of Darwin, have attached details of bore reports below top one is water resources bore two blocks down from me bore report for it is recent as it is used as a water quality test bore second one is from my original bore report and I have been using an average of the two in the water calculator, have looked at a few other reports from blocks around mine and are all fairly similar water resources bore has the most recent report however these are from different times of the year therefore thinking that the average will give me a reasonable base line to work from.

​

Bore​

pH​

Alkalinity​

Total Hardness​

Ca​

Mg​

SO[SIZE=8pt]4[/SIZE]​

Na​

Cl​

HCO[SIZE=8pt]3[/SIZE]​

WR 29384​

7.5​

124​

131​

20.5​

19.5​

1.7​

2.3​

4.7​

124​

Mine 28873​

7.8​

190​

198​

33​

28​

7​

2​

7​

232​

Average​

7.65​

157​

164.5​

26.75​

23.75​

4.35​

2.15​

5.85​

178​

​

Ok would appear that I cannot insert a table but numbers are there if you can make sense of them​

 

[manticle]

You add acid and salts to the boil? All info I can find seems to indicate that would only contribute to flavour. Why not add to the mash?

While getting mash pH right is super important, boil pH is also relevant.

@fungrel - your RO water is pH 10?

 

[fungrel]

While getting mash pH right is super important, boil pH is also relevant.

@fungrel - your RO water is pH 10?

Yes. 6 stage unit with alkalizing filter. So i could load up on Sulfate when making hoppy beers without having to add anything to bring up pH. Works well.

 

[Adr_0]

Located out of Darwin, have attached details of bore reports below top one is water resources bore two blocks down from me bore report for it is recent as it is used as a water quality test bore second one is from my original bore report and I have been using an average of the two in the water calculator, have looked at a few other reports from blocks around mine and are all fairly similar water resources bore has the most recent report however these are from different times of the year therefore thinking that the average will give me a reasonable base line to work from.

​

Bore​

pH​

Alkalinity​

Total Hardness​

Ca​

Mg​

SO[SIZE=8pt]4[/SIZE]​

Na​

Cl​

HCO[SIZE=8pt]3[/SIZE]​

WR 29384​

7.5​

124​

131​

20.5​

19.5​

1.7​

2.3​

4.7​

124​

Mine 28873​

7.8​

190​

198​

33​

28​

7​

2​

7​

232​

Average​

7.65​

157​

164.5​

26.75​

23.75​

4.35​

2.15​

5.85​

178​

​

Ok would appear that I cannot insert a table but numbers are there if you can make sense of them​

so that's looking like you'll need to acidify your sparge water, and likely your mash water too:

Alkalinity - 190
Hardness - 198
Calcium - 33
Magnesium - 28
Sulphate - 7
Sodium - 2
Chloride - 7

Lactic acid is the way to do this. You could arguably use acidulated malt in the mash instead.

Have you got a water calculator spreadsheet? There is certainly room to move on calcium, sulphate and chloride so you should probably get your hands on some calcium sulphate (gypsum) and calcium chloride as well as the lactic acid.

Otherwise, you can try diluting it a little with distilled water. Not necessarily economical (Pureau from Coles at $10/10L) but might be ok in a small/normal batch size.

 

[Adr_0]

so that's looking like you'll need to acidify your sparge water, and likely your mash water too:

Alkalinity - 190
Hardness - 198
Calcium - 33
Magnesium - 28
Sulphate - 7
Sodium - 2
Chloride - 7

Lactic acid is the way to do this. You could arguably use acidulated malt in the mash instead.

Have you got a water calculator spreadsheet? There is certainly room to move on calcium, sulphate and chloride so you should probably get your hands on some calcium sulphate (gypsum) and calcium chloride as well as the lactic acid.

Otherwise, you can try diluting it a little with distilled water. Not necessarily economical (Pureau from Coles at $10/10L) but might be ok in a small/normal batch size.

I should clarify that darker beers (amber ales, porters, stouts) will be fine to mash as-is, but pale beers/pils/wheat will struggle to pull the pH down.