Second Brew = Straight To Extract

[Adam Howard]

G'day,

Today I went out and bought a 15L fermenter because after doing my first brew in a big 30L I thought it'd be better to test recipes in a smaller volume first to save on ingredient cost.

I've used the Kit and Extract Designer to formulate something close to Neill's Centenarillo APA but as a half brew.

Ferment volume of 11.5L

Coopers Amber LME 1.5kg
Dextrose 200g
Maltodextrin 100g
Centennial 10g for 30 mins
Amarillo 10g for 20 mins
Amarillo 15g for 10 mins.

I'll be using US05 yeast.

I was just wondering in regard to the extract and the spreadsheet. Will I be able to boil the full can of extract up in around 6L of water (higher gravity than 1040) and perform my hop additions or do I have to use a proportion of the ME as per the extract spreadsheet.

I want to boil all my extract to get the proteins out of it so I figured whacking it all in at once would be good.

I would do a full volume boil if I had a bigger pot.

Cheers,

Adam.

 

[Pete2501]

I think it was thirstyboy that posted recently that you still need to do a 60 boil. A 30 min boil? I get that you're doing a half batch but still.

 

[Adam Howard]

Yes,

I would chuck the full tin in and boil for 30 mins and then start the hop additions. Just wondering whether there needs to be a specific gravity for the hop schedule or if boiling the hops in with the full tin will work fine.

Cheers.

 

[Dazza_devil]

Where's your speciality grains?

 

[bum]

I would chuck the full tin in and boil for 30 mins and then start the hop additions. Just wondering whether there needs to be a specific gravity for the hop schedule or if boiling the hops in with the full tin will work fine.

Unless you want a tiny amount of bitterness you're still going to have to boil for an hour. You can scale back you amounts but not your times.

Yes, boil gravity is still important for hop utilisation in a half batch.

Boasgy, there are no spec grains in the Neill's original recipe. I remember questioning this once or twice in that recipe's thread but was spoken to like I was an idiot for thinking it might be improved with some. [EDIT: Might be thinking of a different thread, actually, but still no specs in the original.]

 

[Adam Howard]

I was contemplating adding grains but decided on using amber extract rather than light and that would throw my EBC out for the style.

The hop schedule is quite similar to Neill's recipe just scaled back. I've ordered a 40g pack of both Centennial and Amarillo so I can throw a bit more in early.

So bum do I gun for a 1040 SG to get correct hop utilisation? Or will the full can boil work?

 

[bum]

I'd definitely go for a 1040 boil. Can't get at Beersmith right now to work out exactly what your tin would be in your 6L boil. Perhaps someone else might oblige?

 

[Adam Howard]

Is Ian's spreadsheet accurate enough in it's estimate for a 1040? It says I should use 779g of LME in the boil to get 1040.

I'm guessing with the other halfish of LME I'll just boil for the hour in a separate saucepan.

Thanks for the help bum :icon_cheers:

 

[manticle]

I think it was thirstyboy that posted recently that you still need to do a 60 boil. A 30 min boil? I get that you're doing a half batch but still.

With high aa hops you might still get the bitterness you're after.

The other reason besides hop utilisation for boiling the wort for 60+ minutes is to get rid of things like the precursor to DMS. Not sure that's a major issue with extract brews.

Some recipes (english style for example) may only have 45 minute hop additions. It's still a good idea to boil for the full 60 or more when using a large chunk of grain. I do 60 minute additions but boil for 75.

I'm happy to be wrong - that's my current understanding and more what I think Thirsty Boy was referring to in that post you reference.

 

[Cocko]

I was contemplating adding grains but decided on using amber extract rather than light and that would throw my EBC out for the style.

The hop schedule is quite similar to Neill's recipe just scaled back. I've ordered a 40g pack of both Centennial and Amarillo so I can throw a bit more in early.

So bum do I gun for a 1040 SG to get correct hop utilisation? Or will the full can boil work?

You would want to boil at about 1040-1045 to get full hop utilisation but I don't see all the fuss about the full hour boil with an extract...

Maybe I am missing something, but if you do not have a desired IBU, as in you need to boil your hops for an hour to gain the IBU you need to get there, then surely there is no other reason.

Don't get me wrong, an hour boil is desired as it is the norm and easier to map out desired IBU and hop additions but in an AG it is also used for reason of DMS and simply sterilising your wort as you are using non-sanitary 'grain' ! But you would thing a tin of LME would be pretty bug free and the boil would depend on hopping alone....

Sorry, 2c and maybe should go tell my pillow.

:icon_drunk:

 

[Adam Howard]

IBU according to the spreadsheet is 38.7 before pitching yeast.

Adding further hops as earlier additions punches the IBU off the scale. This is based upon 9.7% AA for Centennial and 8.9% for Amarillo. Happy to be humbled.

 

[bum]

Is Ian's spreadsheet accurate enough in it's estimate for a 1040? It says I should use 779g of LME in the boil to get 1040.

I'm guessing with the other halfish of LME I'll just boil for the hour in a separate saucepan.

I've never used Ian's spreadsheet but lots of people swear by it so I'd be willing to trust it.

You don't need to boil the rest of the extract for an hour - if anything all you'll do is darken it. Give it a boil for 10/15 min if you're worried about it but many people are just as happy to bang tinned extract right in the fermenter. As I say, if you're worried about it a short boil will take care of it.

 

[bum]

Maybe I am missing something, but if you do not have a desired IBU, as in you need to boil your hops for an hour to gain the IBU you need to get there, then surely there is no other reason.

Agreed but I'm assuming he's just scaled it back by cutting everything in half.

If you have increased your additions to keep the IBUs the same for a shorter boil then a 30 min boils is fine, as Cocko says.

 

[Adam Howard]

Sweet. Thanks for the help guys.

Put in a G&G order today so I'll have the tin, hops and yeast before Friday and will most likely have Saturday as brew day. I graduate my Uni degree on Saturday too and afterwards heading to the Bluestone Belgian to sink my teeth into some Brune should be a ripper day.

 

[Scruffy]

...you might still need a long vigorous boil. Vigorous to get the most out of the hops (and in AG long to drive off DMS and other volatile compounds and to stabilise proteins) - you don't need to boil the full volume with extract, but remember you might end up with a darker brew as you're more likely to scorch the sugars - and scorched sugar isn't fermentable... if the boil is weak sugars will settle and burn on the bottom - with a full volume boil you'll get better colour, a better malt profile and better hop utilisation.
Sure you want a little mouthfeel and a nice colour, which certain proteins give you but you'll want to remove a lot of the unwanted proteins - now i'm probably straying into AG now, but polyphenols in hops will help you remove proteins but like i said, I'm straying into All grain...
Good luck with the partying!

 

[Adam Howard]

with a full volume boil you'll get better colour, a better malt profile and better hop utilisation.

Dammit! I suppose my other reason for trying out the smaller fermenter was so that I could logistically pull off a full volume boil.

If I can hunt down a reasonably priced 15 or so litre pot before Saturday I'll most likely do go full volume. With the water to extract ratio in a full volume boil will the colour deepen much? And I suppose the same ratio will assist in preventing malt scorching.

Man do I have the bug.

 

[Scruffy]

Well I wouldn't worry too much, like I said, a lot of the panic starts when you learn more about the chemistry of your all grain brews, your tin/extract/steeped grain should be fine, but it's good practice to work your hops... and watch your concentrations... and boil vigorously ...and don't worry!

What about splitting the boil? ...two quarter batches? :icon_cheers:

 

[Adam Howard]

Yes yes. I did think of splitting the wort boil between two pots. I could probably do that easily.

Well a quick look on eBay gives me an idea of the prices of 16L pots which I think would be ideal for a full boil. I could start on around 13L and end on around 11.5L if not just add water to the fermenter.

I may wait a bit and go for something around 25L so I could do BIAB into my small fermenter.

I'm starting to like this small batch thing.

 

[Cocko]

Yes yes. I did think of splitting the wort boil between two pots. I could probably do that easily.

Well a quick look on eBay gives me an idea of the prices of 16L pots which I think would be ideal for a full boil. I could start on around 13L and end on around 11.5L if not just add water to the fermenter.

I may wait a bit and go for something around 25L so I could do BIAB into my small fermenter.

I'm starting to like this small batch thing.

19-20L pots at bigW = 20 bux... any day of the week!

Not the most outstanding quality but have half this forum's member brewing mini biabs/partials!
:icon_cheers:

 

[Dazza_devil]

I would turn the Hop Concentration Factor off if using Ian's Spreadsheet.