Second brew in the tank, have a few questions.

[brzt6060]

After doing some more reading and recving some advice in /r/homebrew I have brew number two underway. It’s another lager! I have a few questions about the brew and a few questions about my plan for this brew going forward. I brewed it with the following:

• 1 Can of Coopers Lager
• 1kg of Light DME
• 300g of Dextrose (I was trying to raise the OG a little but I’m not sure 300g was enough)
• 2 * 11.5g packets of S-23 Yeast
• 12g of Galaxy hops
• All bottled water.

Everything went really well, asides from the yeast being pitched a touch on the warm side 16c (60f). Before pitching the yeast I took a SG reading and tasted the wort, the OG was 1.041 and brew wort tasted really nice other than a mega bitter kick at the end and lots of "floaties" in the wort. The brew is now fermenting at about 12c (53f). Now for my first round of questions;
Will the bitterness reduce during fermentation and bottle conditioning?
If I want to increase the OG a little in future brews is adding Dextrose the way to do this?


My next lot of questions relates to my plans going forward.

My plan going forward is to allow the brew to ferment for ~2 weeks followed a diacetyl rest and then cold crash.

Carried out as follows;
After 2 weeks use a brewer’s belt to raise the temperature to ~ 18c (64f) over a period of 24 hours and then further increase the temperature to 20c (68f) over a further 24 hour period. Once 20c is reached hold the brew at 20c for 24 hours before allowing it to natural cool to ~12c to 14c. Once it has cooled back down cold crash it in a spare fridge to ~2c (35f) over 24 hours then add the fining agent once 2c is reached. I will keep it at 2c for 2 to 4 days before botterling(sic). Does this sound about right or am I total missing somthing here?

Cheers Guys.

I've also attached a picture of the foam after about 24 hours. I'm pretty sure it looks healthy but never hurts to check...

 

[mosto]

Hi brzt6060,

Your process sounds pretty solid. Pitching a lager yeast slightly warm isn't a bad idea to kick start it a bit, but get down to desired ferment temp reasonably quickly, as you have done.

The bitterness will soften with some bottle conditioning.

Adding any fermentable ingredient will increase the OG. Dextrose increases the OG a little but will also result in a lighter bodied, drier beer, which is not a bad thing in a lager. Increasing the amount of extract will also increase OG and also increase the body of the beer. Another method is a Toucan, which is adding to cans to the same volume of water, but this will also increase the bitterness as the cans are pre-hopped, as opposed to straight extract which is not.

If you haven't already, do a search for ianh's spreadsheet. It's great for plugging in ingredients and seeing how they will affect OG, FG IBU's colour and ABV.

Happy brewing!!!

 

[TheWiggman]

My next lot of questions relates to my plans going forward.

My plan going forward is to allow the brew to ferment for ~2 weeks followed a diacetyl rest and then cold crash.

Carried out as follows;
After 2 weeks use a brewer’s belt to raise the temperature to ~ 18c (64f) over a period of 24 hours and then further increase the temperature to 20c (68f) over a further 24 hour period. Once 20c is reached hold the brew at 20c for 24 hours before allowing it to natural cool to ~12c to 14c. Once it has cooled back down cold crash it in a spare fridge to ~2c (35f) over 24 hours then add the fining agent once 2c is reached. I will keep it at 2c for 2 to 4 days before botterling(sic). Does this sound about right or am I total missing somthing here?

Cheers Guys.

My advice would be rather than using time as your guide, use SG. Wait until the brew is about 70% to FG and then increase the temp. I don't think a 2 step increase (i.e. 18 then 20) is neccessary - just step up to 18°C and wait until it's done. Instead of allowing it to naturally cool then dropping, step it down to your lagering temp over a day or 2.
Can't comment regarding the finings - I don't use them.

I've also attached a picture of the foam after about 24 hours. I'm pretty sure it looks healthy but never hurts to check...

Noooooooo! It certainly can hurt - an infection. Keep that lid on, no need to check if you know there's activity.

 

[brzt6060]

Noooooooo! It certainly can hurt - an infection. Keep that lid on, no need to check if you know there's activity.

I should have been clearer. I meant it can't hurt to post the photo and get a second opinion, not it can't hurt to open it up and look inside.
I realised after a day the lid was cross threaded so I took it off quickly and put it back on properly snapping a photo in the process.

 

[boybrewer]

Once fermentation starts it creates a layer of Co2 which protects the fermenting beer , so it doesn't hurt to take the lid off , for some brewers do it , to crop the yeast from it. Having said that it is not recomended to do so for fear of infection .

 

[barabool]

After doing some more reading and recving some advice in /r/homebrew I have brew number two underway. .....

Must say brzt6060 that for a second brew you were light years ahead of most brewers even after their 10th brew.
My first brew was a Coopers can, 1kg of Sugar and tap water put in a warm position (because I had been told it makes the beer ferment quicker!!!)
As my grandfather said to me (after I had used a match to look inside a petrol tin) - 'Sometime we need to do - before we truly understand'
The trick is to use every failure as a learning step. As you see there are a lot of 'conflicting' pieces of advice in forums. No ones is 'wrong' they just come from a different place (and I mean that literally, if you live in Qld, be careful about listening to a Victorian about yeasts and temp times unless both you and him/her have a fridge temp controlled setup.)

Good luck and welcome to the process of the making majority taps beers obsolete.
Cheers

 

[brzt6060]

Must say brzt6060 that for a second brew you were light years ahead of most brewers even after their 10th brew.

Thank you for your kind words, its nice to know I'm on the right track.

It's interesting to see how many different points of view there is on every aspect of home brewing, even when it comes to kit and kilo. I guess this is in part where the "relax and have a home brew" saying comes from. Even if you are doing things wrong you are likely doing it correctly in someones opinion.

That being said it is always good to hear that your way of doing things aligns with majority, its also interesting reading why other people do things a certain way.

 

[brzt6060]

I have a little bit of an update. I took another SG reading tonight at brew +5 days the SG is sitting at around 1.021 from an OG of 1.041.
Would I be right in thinking that is about 50% to 60% done?

Temperature has been holding nicely at around 12c.

Have a fridge ready for cold crashing and lagering in about 10 days time...
Does anyone have any first hand experience with lagering in the primary?
I have a little bit of an update. I took another SG reading tonight at brew +5 days the SG is sitting at around 1.021 from an OG of 1.041.
Would I be right in thinking that is about 50% to 60% done?

Temperature has been holding nicely at around 12c.

I have a fridge ready for cold crashing and lagering in about 10 days time...
Does anyone have any first hand experience with lagering in the primary?

 

[yum beer]

Let it go another 2-3 days then bump up for your D-rest.
Leave that 3-4 days then drop the temp to as close to 0c as you can and leave it there for 10 days or so.
Then bottle. Let it carb up over 2-4 weeks(try 1 after 2 weeks then each week till you get what your after) then into a cold fridge for as long as you can before drinking.
I have a czech lager(budvar clone) that I bottled late January followed fairly close to above method and has reallly hit its sweet spot in the last couple of weeks.......4 1/2 months lagering at 1.8c
Kit batch should come good around 8-12 weeks after carbing up.
No need to go to secondary unless you want to lager the whole batch prior to bottling and have the time/space to do so.

 

[brzt6060]

Bit of an update for anyone who is interested?

Brew Day:
1.041sg
Yeast pitched at 16c
Wort tasted sweet with a MEGA bitter kick at the end.

Brew + 5 Days:
1.02sg
Steady fermentation temp of 12c
Wort tasted sweet with a light bitterness at the end.

Brew + 8 Days:
1.013sg
Steady fermentation temp of 12c.
Wort tasted good but the bitterness seemed to be back and almost have a vomit like after taste.
Starting diacetyl rest - 24 hour climb to 18c

Brew + 9 Days:
No SG reading.
No Taste Test.
Temp reached 24c after about 20 hours. I'm Still figuring out my brew belt and timer, maybe I need to wire up a PID controller or something from work...
Steady around 18c to 20c after 30 hours.

Brew + 10 Days:
1.011sg
Wort tasted sweet and the bitterness was a lot better. No sign of the previously mentioned nasty after taste.
Steady around 18c to 20c.
Brewer’s belt has been removed and wort will begin naturally cooling to 12c - 14c over the next 12 to 24 hours. - CURRENT STATE.


Plan going forward:
Once wort reaches 12c - 14c, should occur in the next 12 to 24 hours fermenting vessel to be placed in fridge for cold crashing at ~ 1c - 4c (better temp reading will be taken prior to adding fermenting vessel). Due to my schedule for next week it will most likely be left to cold crash until somewhere around the 18 to 21 day mark.


On a side note when do you stop referring to it as wort and start referring to it as beer?

 

[mrsupraboy]

I always hear the you should pitch low and the raise Ur temps. Not pitch high and lower then raise again. Maybe next time try pitch at 12. I've now started cubing so waiting for the temp to drop isn't a problem anymore.

 

[TheWiggman]

That's right mrsupraboy, for lagers anyway. It's not uncommon to pitch ales a little warm to get the yeast fired up a bit faster, but I don't believe there's a huge benefit.
Cubing kicks arse for being able to set and forget. You know it's going to be exactly the right temp when you pitch.

 

[brzt6060]

I had planned on pitching lower around the 12 to 14c mark but I massively under estimated how hard it would be to get the temperature down despite using water that was at near freezing (had little bits of ice forming) it may actually have been colder and the thermometer was just slow to react as it is a stick on one.

Forgive my ignorance, could you explain more about what cubing is or point me in the right direction for some reading .

 

[Mattrox]

That's right mrsupraboy, for lagers anyway. It's not uncommon to pitch ales a little warm to get the yeast fired up a bit faster, but I don't believe there's a huge benefit.
Cubing kicks arse for being able to set and forget. You know it's going to be exactly the right temp when you pitch.

Why do the dry lager yeast stats sheets quote pitching at 20°C then chilling to ferment temps?

 

[verysupple]

Why do the dry lager yeast stats sheets quote pitching at 20°C then chilling to ferment temps?

It's a common technique when you don't have enough yeast to pitch cold (the colder you pitch and ferment the more yeast you need). Many (including myself) believe it's not the best way, but it works. The idea is that yeast multiply faster at warmer temps. So if you don't quite have enough, you can pitch warm, it'll multiply, and then ferment at the desired temp. You're more likely to get undesired flavours like acetaldehyde and diacetyl, but they'll mostly go away with warm maturation and lagering.

 

[TheWiggman]

Brzt, do a forum search on no chill cube (function on the phone is no good). Unless you're doing extract or all grain though it's not relevant for you.
I should quantify my comments above - was referring to liquid yeasts. Not really sure about dried. Verysupple sound on the money.

 

[brzt6060]

Brzt, do a forum search on no chill cube (function on the phone is no good). Unless you're doing extract or all grain though it's not relevant for you.
I should quantify my comments above - was referring to liquid yeasts. Not really sure about dried. Verysupple sound on the money.

Cheers!
Will have a look later tonight, just put some dough aside to rise and jumped on the forum before doing dishes... I'm planning on giving BIAB ago in 1 or 2 brews time.

Back to the subject I was planning on pitching colder hence why I pitched 2 packets of yeast.
Snuck another quick taste this afternoon and it tastes magic, can’t wait for it to be ready!

 

[brzt6060]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Couple more quick questions... I really do appreciate all the help everyone on here has been giving me and I look forward to being able to help out other more in the future.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]My brew has now been cold crashing for 4 days at around 0.5c to 1c. I was planning to add finings either today or tomorrow and continue to cold crash it until botterling which will be sometime between Friday and Tuesday making for a total cold crash time of 6 to 10 days. I took a quick sample today just to have a bit of a taste and to check out the clarity. Taste was still pretty good, maybe a touch on the bitter side but I'm ok with that. The clarity was pretty good, no visible hops floating in it. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]I've done some reading and from what I can gather I shouldn't have any issues with bottle conditioning even with cold crashing and using finings but it never hurts to check what the people on here think.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Is it ok to add finishing when the beer is so cold (approximately 1c)? The instructions say to mix the finings in medium premature water (I'm guessing 30 - 60c) and then pour them over the beer and stir gently.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Is it ok to continue cold crashing after the finings have been added?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Lastly what do you guys think, use finings or skip the finings unless you can't cold crash?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Cheers Ben[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]

 

[Alex.Tas]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Couple more quick questions... I really do appreciate all the help everyone on here has been giving me and I look forward to being able to help out other more in the future.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]My brew has now been cold crashing for 4 days at around 0.5c to 1c. I was planning to add finings either today or tomorrow and continue to cold crash it until botterling which will be sometime between Friday and Tuesday making for a total cold crash time of 6 to 10 days. I took a quick sample today just to have a bit of a taste and to check out the clarity. Taste was still pretty good, maybe a touch on the bitter side but I'm ok with that. The clarity was pretty good, no visible hops floating in it. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]I've done some reading and from what I can gather I shouldn't have any issues with bottle conditioning even with cold crashing and using finings but it never hurts to check what the people on here think.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Is it ok to add finishing when the beer is so cold (approximately 1c)? The instructions say to mix the finings in medium premature water (I'm guessing 30 - 60c) and then pour them over the beer and stir gently.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Is it ok to continue cold crashing after the finings have been added?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Lastly what do you guys think, use finings or skip the finings unless you can't cold crash?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Cheers Ben[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]

I haven't used finings before so take from this what you will.
I usually chill my beers as low as they can go for as long as i can. lagers i tend to go with 4 weeks if i have the patients. Ales usually a few days. My extract beers all turned out clear doing this. I accidentally froze a beer the other day. 23L icypole.
also a handy tip is to put your beers in the fidge a few days before drinking. helps settle any stuff out in your bottles.

So my advice is to not worrying about finings, a few days of chilling your beer in the fermenter, then storing your beer cold for a few days prior to drinking should give you some nice clear beer.

If you want to use some sort of finings, I know gelatin needs to be added to chilled beer, so if you don't plan on giving your beer to vegetarians, check out this link:
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/21879-how-to-gelatine/
its a step by step guide in how to use it.

 

[TheWiggman]

You're light years ahead of most beginners with fermentation control anyway, cold crashing for so long will go a long way to settling our paricles in your beer. I'd keep it simple for the time being and remove any opportunity for error.
If you're finding your beers aren't clear enough for whatever reason, start using finings then. Don't use them for the sake of it.