saflager 34/70 cold pitching method question

[JoeyJoeJoe]

Hi

It has been about 8 years from my uni brewing days that was all about massive quantitiy over quality as it only had to taste better that cask wine I now want to get back into brewing but do better job.

I have been reading all over this site and others but I still have a question that I cant find the awnser to.

I want to make a lager I already have the kit and malt and have bought 2 packs of the w34/70 yeast. (I also finished setting up my stc-1000 and deep freeze today!! what a great little device!).

I have read all about dry pitching and rehydrating my problem is that I did a trial today with a half filled fermenter and the temperature is going to take a fair while to get from the 23C pitching temp to the 12C fermenting temp that fermentis recommends. Maybe 12 hours! First question is this too long????

So if I go the rehydrate and cold pitch method do I have to cool the rehydrated yeast down to 12C before I pitch? Also do I have to warm the yeast up before I rehydrate? (currently in the fridge)

Anyway for the cold pitch method does this sound like a plan.
1. mix up kit and malt in hotwater add to fermenter.
2. add tap water to fermenter seal up and put in freezer(set stc to 12C taped probe to fermenter)
3.Wait
4.Stc says 12C YAH!
5.Warm up yeast in my pocket for 5 minutes. then Pitch in to about 500ml of room temp water.put some glad rap on top.
6.Wait 30 minutes give a little stir
7.Put yeast mix in freezer aswell.
8.Wait 30ish minutes? For it to cool down then pitch???

Brew day is tomorrow help me out!!!

Thank you

James.

 

[manticle]

Firstly rehydrate according to manufacturer's instructions.
Secondly I prefer to pitch cool but it's easy for me to do. I would prefer to pitch warmer in your situation than leave it 12 hours.

However set the temp at about 8 rather than 12. You will struggle to get that frrmenting wort down much below 15 if the fridge is at 12. Fermentation produces heat. If you have a thermometer, draw off a sample into your hydro tube and measure it.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

all fermentis say is the following

　
rehydration instructions
Sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or wort at 23°C± 3°C (73°F ± 6°F). Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes.
Gently stir for 30 minutes, and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.
Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F). Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes, then mix the wort using aeration or by wort addition.

It doesn't say if I have to cool the rehydrated yeast or if taking 12 ish hours to get down to femernt temp is ok? I actually think there instructions could be a lot more detailed.....

Also the temp is the outside of the fermentor insulated with some styrafoam not the freezer temp which is much lower.

Thanks for the reply though.

 

[manticle]

I'd just pitch it into your wort and not wait the 12 hours. Temps should be pretty close.

If it were easier to chill quickly, my answer would be different.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

I could put some water in the fridge the day before to get the wort temp down ? So add half tap water and half cold water? would that be a better idea. Would I need to cool the rehydrated yeast dwon before I pitched it in? 23C to 12C seems like a biggish jump?

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Pitch it warm as Manticle says and let it cool down. The warm pitching should help it fire up earlier. And set your fridge lower that 12..

 

[manticle]

Keep it simple for your first. If you don't like the results, tweak the next one.

 

[djar007]

Manticle is suggesting that you either wait or pitch it warm. The risk pitching it arm is you may get an infection. Or undesirable tastes. dms being the main one. here is a link fr some more info.http://www.picobrewery.com/askarchive/dms.htm
Pitching warm is the better option. Then concentrate on desired ferment temp.As suggested.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

Ok will do. I will pitch it warm and see how it goes. I will also set the temp down abit say 10C because I think you are right it will be cooler on the outside of the fermenter than in the wort.

Thanks for the advice guys.

 

[djar007]

On a side note. I am sure I heard on the radio today that we need to produce more dms in order to drop the temperature of the ocean. But that may be related to growing more algae. Interesting nonetheless.

 

[manticle]

Manticle is suggesting that you either wait or pitch it warm. The risk pitching it arm is you may get an infection. Or undesirable tastes. dms being the main one. here is a link fr some more info.http://www.picobrewery.com/askarchive/dms.htm
Pitching warm is the better option. Then concentrate on desired ferment temp.As suggested.

Actually suggesting not waiting if it's a 12 hour wait.
I prefer pitching cold but I no chill and can get the wort where I want it with no risk. If I had to wait 1 degree per hour, I would pitch warm.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

no chill? Does that mean you use nitros oxide? That sounds hard core because if I had acces to nitros I probably wouldn't need beer

 

[Rocker1986]

Ok will do. I will pitch it warm and see how it goes. I will also set the temp down abit say 10C because I think you are right it will be cooler on the outside of the fermenter than in the wort.

Thanks for the advice guys.

I disagree with this actually, based on my own experiences with insulating the STC temp probe against the side of the FV. Each brew I do, when I take a gravity sample I also do a temp reading to compare against what the STC is reading and it's always pretty much bang on. Just today I took a reading and measured its temp before doing the SG reading. The STC was reading 18.2C, the temp of the sample was about 64.5 - 65F (18.05 - 18.3C). I reckon if you set the temp to 10C you'll end up fermenting it at 10C or thereabouts, not that there's anything wrong with that - it'll still ferment fine.

This is the whole point of insulating the probe, so it isn't affected by the ambient air and actually measures the brew temperature. The rest of the surface area of the FV might be cooler than the wort but that area covered by the insulated probe is (or should be) pretty much the same.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

Thats interesting. How far along the ferment were you? I imagine the temp difference would be larger at the start when the yeast is generating heat? Maybe I will split the difference and set it to 11.
Fermentis suggest 2 days at 12 and then5-6 days at 14 then 2 days at 15 then lager. I just worry that spendinf the first 12 hours getting down to temp will do.... But I am probably just worring about nothing I can barely tell the difference between XXXX and VB so my palate probably wont care too much. I would like to impress my mates though.....

 

[manticle]

My experience is different. Plastic is an insulator and my wort always measures 2-3 degrees higher when actively fermenting.
Have calibrated the stc.

10 deg is good for most lager yeasts anyway.
No chill is a method for full mash or any other full volume method. Not suitable here, no nitrous or nangs involved

 

[Rocker1986]

It's practically finished fermenting, but I don't bother taking readings in the first few days, it's just a waste of beer. I set the temp to 18 and the differential on the STC to 0.3C. I've noticed in the first couple of days of ferment, once the fridge turns off at 18, it rises to 18.3 faster, then the STC kicks the fridge in to bring it back to 18 again, then it rises again and so on and so forth. So the fridge is being switched on a little more frequently. When it gets to the end it takes longer to rise as there is obviously less activity, and the fridge doesn't kick in as often. This is because the insulated probe is measuring the brew temp. If it wasn't insulated then you would get a different temp reading to what the wort actually is.

I might do a quick reading on my next brew though and see if it is different to what the STC is reading, while actively fermenting.

 

[manticle]

Different story if it's not active.
Fridge is acting that way because there is a source of heat in the fridge.

 

[Rocker1986]

Yes I figured the active fermentation producing heat would be the cause of the temp rising faster and therefore the fridge kicking in more often. It just doesn't follow any logic to me that just because it's fermenting, the probe measures the temp differently to when it's not as active, especially when it is causing the fridge to come on more often to bring it back to the desired temperature. I'm not arguing because I haven't tested it, it just seems weird. But, as I said, next brew I will take a reading while it is actively fermenting to see if the temp of the brew is the same or higher than what the STC reads. If it is higher then I'll drink a six pack of VB cans

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

Well they are down gentlemen.

Did two batches both the same but one kit was Morgans Blue Mountain Lager Brand new exp date 2014 and one was a coles lager exp date 2011 (long story)
I added half a can of Morgans master blend lager to each plus 500g dextrose. The Magic spread sheet said I should have a OG of 1.041 at 23L but my hydro said 1.038 but it could have been 1.036 or 1.040 depending on how you look at it ?

I ended up addid 9L of cold water to both fermenters with the tap water and the temp pre yeast was about 16C I mixed up two batches times 2 (total 4 packs) of the w34/70 let it sit for 20min gave them both a stir chucked them in the fridge for 30minutes then added them in they looked ok like really thick bread smelling milk.

Pic Blue mountain on left Coles on right the Blue was sweet then suprisingly bitter while the coles was pretty plain bit sweet not very bittter at all. I was really suprised at the different colours!

 

[jotaigna]

That photo is a cautonary tale for kit brewers world wide.
Anyone who asks "I found this kit in me garage from 1987, should I put down a brew?" should be pointed to it.