S-189 finally being rolled out in 11.5g packs

[DJ_L3ThAL]

It could be interpreted the final step there of waiting 30minutes and mixing in by aeration applies to either methods of rehydrating or not.

 

[kaiserben]

Yeast (whether sprinkled dry, rehydrated from dy, or liquid) benefits from access to O2 to reproduce quickly and cleanly. It can do it without O2 (assuming it has required nutrients), but it'll be slower and increase likelihood of a stuck ferment of produce off flavours.

Availability of O2 allows the yeast to create fatty acids and sterols that build healthy cell membranes. Insufficient levels fatty acids and sterols mean yeast could stop budding. Weak cell membranes mean they are more unlikely to handle alcohol and can be killed. There's an increased likelihood of a stuck ferment (I had a few before geting serious about O2) and production of off flavours.

Basically, you can get away without O2 if you've stocked up on yeast nutrient, but you increase the likelihood of slow ferment, stuck ferment and off flavours.

I use O2 on every brew these days. Previously had quite a few stuck ferments. Not anymore.

Good info here if you fancy a read.

EDIT: Dried yeast producers include sterols and that's why they can be sprinkled direct. But conditions become more ideal for the yeast if you give it some O2. And even more ideal if you've rehydrated first, IMO.

 

[mckenry]

Yeast (whether sprinkled dry, rehydrated from dy, or liquid) benefits from access to O2 to reproduce quickly and cleanly. It can do it without O2 (assuming it has required nutrients), but it'll be slower and increase likelihood of a stuck ferment of produce off flavours.

Availability of O2 allows the yeast to create fatty acids and sterols that build healthy cell membranes. Insufficient levels fatty acids and sterols mean yeast could stop budding. Weak cell membranes mean they are more unlikely to handle alcohol and can be killed. There's an increased likelihood of a stuck ferment (I had a few before geting serious about O2) and production of off flavours.

Basically, you can get away without O2 if you've stocked up on yeast nutrient, but you increase the likelihood of slow ferment, stuck ferment and off flavours.

I use O2 on every brew these days. Previously had quite a few stuck ferments. Not anymore.

Good info here if you fancy a read.

EDIT: Dried yeast producers include sterols and that's why they can be sprinkled direct. But conditions become more ideal for the yeast if you give it some O2. And even more ideal if you've rehydrated first, IMO.

The bottom two paragraphs of the link say this;

Know Your Options
So, the bottom line is that yeast does not generally respire, and it does not even need oxygen at all to survive and grow. Yeast does, however, need lipids to build cell membranes and in their absence will readily consume oxygen for their synthesis.
Aerating your wort may solve some fermentation problems, but remember that if you’re pitching a fresh, healthy yeast culture of the optimal size, aeration is usually not essential and may even be undesirable in certain cases. Most important, the level of dissolved oxygen necessary in wort to produce the best beer depends on the strain of yeast being used, its viability, the pitching rate, and the style of beer being made.
Lipids are what are jam packed into dry yeast. So, you dont need to add O2 when using dry. Adding O2 to wort when using dry yeast can increase lag time.
Dr. Clayton Cone from Danstar says you dont need O2 when using dry yeast, unless you brew >5% alcohol or underpitch.

I say, Know your options too. I've not had a slow or stuck ferment using dry since I rehydrated and used the correct pitch rate.
I'm not a dry ONLY advocate. There are many many more choices with liquids. Its just dry is so easy. As I make 50L batches, liquid is always a starter, a step up... pitch, oxygen, clean up stone....
Dry yeast is weigh, hydrate, pitch. Bingo.

 

[kaiserben]

I dunno. Everytime I think I understand something someone will contradict what I thought I understood. Haha.

John Palmer's How to Brew says that yeast: "can use other methods to adapt and grow in the absence of oxygen, but they can do it much more efficiently with oxygen. ... The yeast use their own glycogen reserves, oxygen, and wort lipids to synthesize sterols to build up their cell membranes. The sterols are known to be critical for enabling the cell membrane to be permeable to wort sugars and other wort nutrients. Sterols can also be produced by the yeast under poor oxygen conditions from lipids found in wort trub, but that pathway is much less efficient. ... The reproduction process takes a lot of energy and aerobic metabolic processes are more efficient than anaerobic. Thus, an oxygen-rich wort shortens the adaptation phase, and allows the yeast to quickly reproduce to levels that will ensure a good fermentation."

 

[kaiserben]

But back on topic, Would people recommend S-189 for a schwarzbier? From what research I've done I'm leaning towards S-23, but interested in people's opinions.

 

[Tahoose]

Yeah it would be good option, or if you have the space but one of both and do a spilt batch. 1 pack for half a batch is about right for pitching rates anyway.

 

[kaiserben]

one of both and do a spilt batch.

Great idea.

 

[Barge]

I would use s-189 on any lager if I was using a dry yeast. Very forgiving and predictable results. I recently used M84. Used a starter and fermented at 13C and lagered at 2C. Even under those conditions it took weeks for it to come good (as you could reasonably expect). In my experience S-189 has none of those issues.

 

[Tahoose]

I have heard good things about m84, however my one experience was not good.

Pitched 2 rehydrated packs onto a 1:045 wort and it stalled at 1:020 even after a temp rise and some agitation. I didn't want to package it and my holiday came before the final gravity did.

Ended up tipping it.

 

[technobabble66]

For those of us playing in the northern & eastern burbs of Melbs, Dave at Greensborough Homebrewing has just started stocking the 11.5g packs of S-189.
Hallelujah!!

 

[timmi9191]

Any interest in splitting a 500g block?

http://kegking.com.au/yeast/fermentis/saflager-s-189-500g-pack.html

 

[indica86]

Bought some from NHB. Like it actually. Will be re using the dregs shortly.
Was cheaper when I bought it.

 

[yankinoz]

But back on topic, Would people recommend S-189 for a schwarzbier? From what research I've done I'm leaning towards S-23, but interested in people's opinions.

I just enjoyed a Munich Dunkel brewed with S-189, pitched at 11 and fermented at 13. It was drinkable after one month of cold conditioning but has improved now over four months. I've done Oktoberfests with it too. Schwarzbier? Ja. Correct your lean and go for S-189 in malty lagers. Divorce S-23.

 

[technobabble66]

Hey yankinoz, care to share the Munich dunkel recipe?
I'm still deciding between the base being all Munich or 85:15 Munichils.
I've read various opinions on this. Namely the use of some pils may allow a lower FG and a drier beer. Thoughts?

 

[yankinoz]

Hey yankinoz, care to share the Munich dunkel recipe?
I'm still deciding between the base being all Munich or 85:15 Munichils.
I've read various opinions on this. Namely the use of some pils may allow a lower FG and a drier beer. Thoughts?

I'll post the full recipe shortly. For now, the grist was
3.0 kg Weyermann Munich T2 (the darker)
1.0 kg JW Export Pils
0.3 Gladfield Shepherd's Delight
0.3 Weyermann Caramunich III

SRM 16

As you can see, with those specialty malts I needed some pils for conversion, though probably less than I used.

 

[kaiserben]

I just enjoyed a Munich Dunkel brewed with S-189, pitched at 11 and fermented at 13. It was drinkable after one month of cold conditioning but has improved now over four months. I've done Oktoberfests with it too. Schwarzbier? Ja. Correct your lean and go for S-189 in malty lagers. Divorce S-23.

I ended up doing a side-by-side S-189 & S-23 and ... well ... they were both great. I'm not sure I had a preference in my schwarz. Both were drinkable from the get-go, the S-189 batch a little more so. But both had become noticeably awesome at 3 months and I had no preference after that.

So I suppose S-189 is better just because it tasted better before it had been lagered.

I've since made another batch using S-189, but had trouble getting it to ferment out. It wasn't at all drinkable at first. After 4 months it's just come around (but still tastes like it needs longer conditioning).

And then made another with S-189 that seems to have gone smoothly. It's currently lagering.

The next yeast I'll use is The Yeast Bay's Franconian Dark Lager.

 

[technobabble66]

Thanks, yankinoz for posting the recipe! I'll post the same question in the Style section and see what the additional feedback is.
It seems like 97-100% Munich is fine as is to convert & attenuate out well. But like you, I'll be using some extra spec malt (~450g in 5kg), which makes me wonder if a little pils is best.

@kaiserben, great to see a detailed comparison!! It's exactly the kind of info that's most useful for prospective S-189 users [emoji6]

 

[mckenry]

What was this packaged as before? only 500g? <11.5g?

 

[yankinoz]

Techno, your equipment, brewing water and methods probably differ from mine, but here are the essentials:

Volume 23 L, including estimated losses, actual starting volume in fermenter <22L
The essential information is the grist was:
3.0 kg Weyermann Munich T2
1.0 kg JW Export Pils (subbed for Bopils because of supply)
0.3 Gladfield Shepherd's Delight
0.3 Weyermann Caramunich III
1.051 OG
1.012 FG

SRM 16

Step mash: starting pH 5.4 (estimated using braukaiser), 40 minutes at 62, 20 at 65, and 30 at 71. Light sparge with 4L water at about 70.

Boil time 70 minutes
37 g Tettnang (3.8% AA) @ -55, 25g Tettnang @ -15

Pitched at 11 with 2 x 12 g S-189, repackaged by Craftbrew as Swiss Lager yeast, let rise to 13 during active phase, then slow rise to 16, batch-primed w glucose and bottled from primary at 22 days.
Starting mash pH 5.4 (estimated using Braukaiser),

Flavour: malt and more malt, slight roastiness. Sweet upfront, finish dry and moderately bitter

Some particulars:
BIAB w. dunk sparge

Less than a full boil. I started at 22L, topped up and at knockout added 3L of cold, sanitized water.

same water used in mash and sparge, target water composition similar to Munich except that the target chloride was higher, about 30 ppm

The mash schedule was chosen largely to keep attenuation fairly high after mashing a grist that included 600g of malts that tend to sweeten beers. If I do it again, I might reduce SD to about 220g and add more Munich.

About Munich T2, Weyermann says it self-converts, but some brewers who have used it at 100% of grist report low conversion rates. The methods differed, I suppose.

If you keg, you'll no doubt disregard my carbonation and lagering schedule, which is part of an ongoing experiment, but here it is:

I divided the beer after bottling. The control was at 18-20 C for two weeks and then went into cold conditioning at about 1 C. The test was at 18-20 for three days to start the yeast multiplying, in cold-conditioning for four weeks, back at carbonating temps for ten days, and then back in cold conditioning. The flavour from the test bottles is consistently superior, but there has been some variation in carbonation from bottle to bottle.

 

[dr K]

why do you ferment at such temperatures when using a lager yeast??