Rye In A Lager?

[praxis178]

OK, so I ended up with twice the amount of rye that I ordered, soooo as I'm doing a lager this week anyway I thought I might just add a bit for complexity's sake. I know it can be done from a purely technical stand point, but what I was wondering is just what effect this will have on my lager?

The lager is a basic single malt* (OK so there is 200g of carapils in there too), using Pearle for bittering (home grown harvested two weeks ago, might also raid the bines for the few late ripeners hanging around), and some Saaz (NZ) for aroma.

*The basic recipe is (18L batch in the fermenter):

3.3kg pale lager malt
200g carapils
22g Pearle (~8-10%AA 60mins)
14g Saaz (6.3%AA flame out partial cool)
1 tab whirlfloc (15mins)

1L Wyeast Danish Lager yeast starter. Pitch at 18C then cool to 10C over 24hrs hold at this point till primary is completed, rack bottle etc. at 8C post carbonation rest at 15C.

So how would say 100-300g of rye (flaked) effect things?

 

[RdeVjun]

That's very interesting Thomas, I can't say I've ever used rye so I really can't add much, but I have done quite a few of a vaguely similar sort of recipe, a Munich Helles though, but with wheat malt and polenta which has been well received. 2042 does lend a very decent flavour profile, should be OK with rye as I understand it. This rye stuff seems to be gaining in popularity too BTW, might give it a whirl myself.
Now, I'm no lager expert but maybe the Saaz should go in a bit earlier? Also are you quite confident of the Perle's bittering? If not perhaps swap them to flavour and the Saaz to bittering? I would be looking forward to the fresh home- grown hops though, regardless! :icon_drool2:

As an aside, using just the single base malt is a challenge I'd like to see more brewers undertake to get more familiar with their most basic ingredients, plus get a handle on the tricks and traps in doing so. My Munich Helles recipe is not an example of that but some of the TTL- style ales I've done with 100% GP have been very enlightening and I learnt heaps doing them. There's no need to go all the way with a SMaSH (Single Malt and Single Hops), but dispensing with specialty malts is a good start and has an educational component in such things as mash profile, decoction(s), caramelisation, water chemistry, hops balancing etc, if it can all be made to work. Obviously, this can all be a bit overwhelming for a new brewer so spec malts will always have their place, but on the other hand, experienced brewers would be doing themselves a favour in trying some of these techniques IMO...
Oh, sorry if I've hijacked...

My 2c, hope it helps... :icon_cheers:

 

[chappo1970]

Oooh I sooooo love my rye. And I am glad to see another brewer joining the Ryevolution. Ok this is all my opinion and let me say I have not done a rye lager. However I brew regularly with rye in APA's, IPA's, IIPA's and even a stout.

However I don't think rye lends itself to a lager sorry to say. I am always up for experimantation and encourage it but in this instance I would say the rye would be way too dominant and the very flavour profile and mouth feel stlickness would make a very disappointing beer.

Let me explain as best I can. Rye has a certain spiciness quality had to describe but very distinct. In a light well balanced lager both the malts and hops are subtle yet balanced. Even in the bigger malty lagers this balance is what makes them. Rye would IMO completely distract this balance and even give you the perception of a badly balanced beer.

The other trait of rye is the slick mouthfeel giving the perception of a full bodied beer. Now for purposes a lager is crisp so having that slickness would also distract from the beer.

Anyway if you do brew it I would really interested in the outcome.

Chap Chap

 

[RdeVjun]

Yeah, fair call ChapChap. I knew I should've waited until the Rye supremo showed up!

Probably very difficult to integrate into most lagers, so ignore my naive previous remarks about contemplating it...

 

[praxis178]

Oooh I sooooo love my rye. And I am glad to see another brewer joining the Ryevolution. Ok this is all my opinion and let me say I have not done a rye lager. However I brew regularly with rye in APA's, IPA's, IIPA's and even a stout.

However I don't think rye lends itself to a lager sorry to say. I am always up for experimantation and encourage it but in this instance I would say the rye would be way too dominant and the very flavour profile and mouth feel stlickness would make a very disappointing beer.

Let me explain as best I can. Rye has a certain spiciness quality had to describe but very distinct. In a light well balanced lager both the malts and hops are subtle yet balanced. Even in the bigger malty lagers this balance is what makes them. Rye would IMO completely distract this balance and even give you the perception of a badly balanced beer.

The other trait of rye is the slick mouthfeel giving the perception of a full bodied beer. Now for purposes a lager is crisp so having that slickness would also distract from the beer.

Anyway if you do brew it I would really interested in the outcome.

Chap Chap

Small batch, so not much to loose, save the home grown hops, might have to reconsider the hops then. LOL

Not having tried/tasted (knowingly anyway) a rye carrier beer I'm not sure I get what you mean by "slickness", but I like oddball flavours, never met a food/beverage I didn't like on some level, well except that black axle grease you Aussies insist on eating on toast (born in Denmark) just can't stand that stuff!

But be that as it may, I'll go with it more or less as is, but I'll tone down the rye to ~100g. Heck I'm a huge fan of rye breads (home bake all the bread eaten in the house, most loaves have ~50% "whole rye" flour or there about), so I like the flavour of rye. So this might just work for me, anyway when done Ill let you know what I think, and if you want I can shove a bottle in the mail for you as I'm "just up the coast a ways". LOL

Does give a me a bit of pause for thought though, good thing I'm not brewing till the weekend then! Have to try to find a rye brew and fast, need to know what I'm playing with! :icon_drunk:

Thanks for the run down......

 

[praxis178]

Yeah, fair call ChapChap. I knew I should've waited until the Rye supremo showed up!

Probably very difficult to integrate into most lagers, so ignore my naive previous remarks about contemplating it...

Nothing wrong with experimenting, it's the "what to do with 18L of undrinkable beer" that has me worried! :lol:

 

[Tony]

Ryebock?

Dubbelryebock?

Munichryedunkel?

Think malty, low bitterness styles. I dont think Rye would work in a pale, bitter lager that should be crisp but a malty dark lager???

Im thinking a Bockbier with 25% Rye.

A while back i made a Belgian Rye dubbel with a belgian yeast but it got infected. In gunna give it another run now im on top of my problems. Will be adding the Ryebock idea to the list now i think

cheers

 

[chappo1970]

Ryebock?

Dubbelryebock?

Munichryedunkel?

Think malty, low bitterness styles. I dont think Rye would work in a pale, bitter lager that should be crisp but a malty dark lager???

Im thinking a Bockbier with 25% Rye.

A while back i made a Belgian Rye dubbel with a belgian yeast but it got infected. In gunna give it another run now im on top of my problems. Will be adding the Ryebock idea to the list now i think

cheers

Tony you really are the master. Loooove the sound of a Ryebock... :icon_drool2:

 

[Tony]

Give this a go. Its what i would make.


Ryebock

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 23.00 Wort Size (L): 23.00
Total Grain (kg): 6.80
Anticipated OG: 1.068 Plato: 16.61
Anticipated EBC: 38.2
Anticipated IBU: 24.5
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
35.3 2.40 kg. Weyermann Pilsner Germany 1.038 4
32.4 2.20 kg. Weyermann Munich II Germany 1.038 26
26.5 1.80 kg. Weyermann Pale Rye Malt Germany 1.034 8
4.4 0.30 kg. Weyermann Caramunich II Germany 1.035 125
1.5 0.10 kg. Weyermann Carafa Special II Germany 1.036 1100



Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
36.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Pellet 6.30 24.5 60 min.


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP833 German Bock

 

[praxis178]

Ryebock?

Dubbelryebock?

Munichryedunkel?

Think malty, low bitterness styles. I dont think Rye would work in a pale, bitter lager that should be crisp but a malty dark lager???

Im thinking a Bockbier with 25% Rye.

A while back i made a Belgian Rye dubbel with a belgian yeast but it got infected. In gunna give it another run now im on top of my problems. Will be adding the Ryebock idea to the list now i think

cheers

Sooooo maybe something along these lines?

View attachment ryebock.txt

 

[Tony]

dude..... thats a porter, or a stout with all that black malt in there.

 

[praxis178]

dude..... thats a porter, or a stout with all that black malt in there.

Yeah I know, but it's the only malt I have in stock that will lend enough colour without being the ONLY malt in the brew.

Besides it was only a starting point, I don't plan on brewing it any time soon, the lagerater is, um, occupied with a lager fermenting (well it will be when I pitch the yeast) and by the 70+ bottles of lager lagering.... Sigh I need another fridge, or maybe a cool room.

Need to do a bit of reading up on heavy lagers before I venture too much further down this road.

Next brew is a Belgian Rye Blond, so I can get my "rye feet" wet in a more controlled manner. LOL

 

[yardy]

maybe a schwarzbier would be ok to experiment with rye, instead of 50 / 50 Pils and Munich maybe sub out half the munich for the rye ?

would mashing at a lower temp help with the oiliness ?

cheers

Dave

 

[praxis178]

maybe a schwarzbier would be ok to experiment with rye, instead of 50 / 50 Pils and Munich maybe sub out half the munich for the rye ?

would mashing at a lower temp help with the oiliness ?

cheers

Dave

Just a follow up on the rye in a lager idea, so I made it (recipe below), and I have to say it's a corker of a lager! dry and refreshing with a kind of spicy zing to it. Definitely on my brew again list!


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Singltons
Brewer: Thomas Janstrom
Asst Brewer:
Style: Tysk pilsner
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 16.20 L
Boil Size: 20.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.051 SG
Estimated Color: 9.1 EBC
Estimated IBU: 35.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 60.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
0.35 kg Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 8.6 %
3.30 kg Lager Malt (3.9 EBC) Grain 81.5 %
0.20 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (3.9 EBC) Grain 4.9 %
0.20 kg Rye, Flaked (3.9 EBC) Grain 4.9 %
27.00 gm Northern Brewer [8.50%] (60 min) Hops 35.2 IBU
15.00 gm Pearle [10.00%] (5 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep)Hops -
0.95 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Danish Lager (Wyeast Labs #2042) Yeast-Lager


Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 3.70 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Protein Rest Add 9.65 L of water at 54.0 C 50.0 C 30 min
Saccharification Heat to 65.6 C over 15 min 65.6 C 75 min
Mash Out Heat to 75.6 C over 10 min 75.6 C 10 min


Notes:
------
bottled 23/03/10.

 

[yardy]

Just a follow up on the rye in a lager idea, so I made it (recipe below), and I have to say it's a corker of a lager! dry and refreshing with a kind of spicy zing to it. Definitely on my brew again list!


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Singltons
Brewer: Thomas Janstrom
Asst Brewer:
Style: Tysk pilsner
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 16.20 L
Boil Size: 20.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.051 SG
Estimated Color: 9.1 EBC
Estimated IBU: 35.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 60.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
0.35 kg Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 8.6 %
3.30 kg Lager Malt (3.9 EBC) Grain 81.5 %
0.20 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (3.9 EBC) Grain 4.9 %
0.20 kg Rye, Flaked (3.9 EBC) Grain 4.9 %
27.00 gm Northern Brewer [8.50%] (60 min) Hops 35.2 IBU
15.00 gm Pearle [10.00%] (5 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep)Hops -
0.95 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Danish Lager (Wyeast Labs #2042) Yeast-Lager


Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 3.70 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Protein Rest Add 9.65 L of water at 54.0 C 50.0 C 30 min
Saccharification Heat to 65.6 C over 15 min 65.6 C 75 min
Mash Out Heat to 75.6 C over 10 min 75.6 C 10 min


Notes:
------
bottled 23/03/10.

I kegged my schwarznrye after 3 weeks with S-189, i only went with 5% rye also, first impressions seem OK, there's no slick mouthfeel but it is only 5%, I'm looking forward to seeing how it ages

cheers

Dave

 

[Florian]

That sounds like a nice lager Thomas, especially with that name (jeg kommer fra Tyskland).
Have put it on my to brew list. Am off to Germany in a few days and will have a look at some commercial Roggenbier to get some ideas.

Florian